Ok, this explains why people are upset about it. I saw things about this floating around and thought “So what? You mean they’re not doing this everywhere?” If it’s been made illegal, then that’s certainly a reason why most teams wouldn’t do it and why one team doing it to the exclusion of others would be a big deal. I’m wondering why then, if this was supposedly illegal, there wasn’t a greater attempt to obfuscate what was going on. A guy who works specifically for the football team bought tickets in his own name, so it doesn’t take a ton of detective work to figure that out.
The other question is why aren’t any other coaches criticizing them for cheating like this.
On PTI, Booger McFarland explained that the answer to both of those questions is “because everybody else does it too.”
Except there is no proof that Michigan staff, including Stalions, attended those games. It looks like he recruited people to attend and record video. It’s not much of a distinction but that’s never stopped anyone before.
Assuming it turns out that anybody on the Michigan staff was actively involved in scouting opponents, the two big questions would seem to be:
One, when will the NCAA get around to finishing its investigation and hand out a penalty;
Two, will the penalty involve Michigan having to vacate any wins?
If the answer to the first one is, “Not before the 2023 postseason ends,” then vacating wins where the opponent was scouted won’t have that much of an effect; presumably, if Michigan ends up winning the CFP championship, it would not have scouted its two opponents, so those wins would stand (I think there is zero chance of vacating a win where you didn’t scout the opponent). If Michigan finishes the regular season undefeated, it doesn’t really matter how many games it vacates, as it will have “at least as many wins as losses,” which is the only requirement for bowl eligibility. (There was a six-win minimum once, but the NCAA got rid of that.)
That being beside the point, is there any precedent for a team vacating wins because of scouting? I found another team found guilty of scouting (I think it was Florida; I can’t remember which year), but it didn’t have to give back any of its wins. AFAIK, the only time wins are vacated is when a team uses an ineligible player. (After the Sandusky scandal, the NCAA tried vacating some of Penn State’s wins - the only reason I can think of is, so it wouldn’t have to show Joe Paterno as the Division I head coach with the most wins - but a court made them give the wins back.)
There is one new policy that Michigan needs to worry about; if the NCAA does come down with a postseason ban for this season, Michigan cannot delay its implementation while it appeals the decision. No more watching teams defy postseason bans while they appeal, and then, when the appeal is finally over and the ban is upheld, whining, “But everybody involved is gone! You’re only punishing innocent athletes!” - this is why the NCAA appears to be getting out of the bowl ban business, and instead fining schools an amount equal to what they think the school would receive from a bowl.
It could very well be argued that scouting teams early in season led to them going to the playoffs, so any post-season wins (B10 championship, FBS championship) should be vacated.
Photo believed to be Connor Stallions, Michigan football staffer, dressed in Central Michigan coaching gear and on the sidelines of the CMU MSU game earlier this year with the intent to steal signs from MSU. Photos just emerged on Monday…CMU is investigating as to who this person actually is.
Except that the NCAA cannot vacate championships that it did not give out. That is up to the Big Ten (for the conference championship - and that, I can see happening) and the CFP committee (for the CFP championship) to do - and if the CFP did, it would have to answer the question, “Then why did you let Michigan into the playoff in the first place?”
The New York Times “The Athletic” polled fifty American college football coaches. One presumes they have a good idea of the norms and the nitty-gritty of the issues. I do not.
Asked to rate the offence from trivial (1/5) to serious (5/5), the average was 4.2 and only two of fifty coaches rated it below 3.
47/50 coaches felt some punishment was required (though some were reluctant to blame young players for a coach whose main job was apparently purloining signals. Most felt knowing plays provided an enormous advantage, which seems clear enough).
Because of the paper trail, 35/50 coaches felt there was no plausible deniability at all. And 37/50 coaches felt this was responsible for a significant degree of the team’s success.
I’m not an expert on any of this stuff. But rivalries aside, this seems close to consensus.
(Likely paywalled, but all the relevant stuff essentially already mentioned.)
I don’t know what that’s supposed to show. If you could steal the signs just by looking at them from the sidelines every opponent would do it in real time during the game. You need time corolating the signs with the plays to decipher the difference between dummy signals and real ones. To actually steal signs it has to be filmed for study later.
They try to do so during the game with at least limited success. If you have an entire prior game to figure it out, it’s a huge advantage.
Screw that. I’m glad the university is fighting this. It’s almost like the other Big Ten coaches cried so much on their weekly calls that the Big Ten felt like they had to do something. “Ooo! 94% of CFB coaches think Michigan should be punished! We better do something quick!”
It’s the weakest possible punishment for a clear violation of this magnitude. If proof can be given that Harbaugh was aware of the cheating, then he should be banned from DI coaching, Michigan’s football program placed on suspension for probably 2 years, and wins since the first known occurrence vacated.
If proof cannot be given to link Harbaugh to Stalions, Harbaugh should still be suspended for having no control over a program that is blantantly cheating.
Any others schools who are doing this should receive similar penalties.
No, a fair punishment, if one must be handed out immediately without an actual investigation, would be firing the guilty (with evidence) staffer (done) and a fine. Punishing these players for a low-level staffer’s actions in a season that they’ve played spectacularly is b.s. Again, with no actual evidence that harbaugh had fuck-all to do with it.
Ohio State and Rutgers stole Michigan’s signs and passed around a spreadsheet throughout the Big 10. Are we gonna suspend those coaches without an investigation too?
Fine Harbaugh, maybe even the university, make them feel some pain (if something absolutely has to be done right this minute), but these players aren’t winning because Connor Stallions travelled to other schools. The other teams had Michigan’s signs too. How were those attained? Are Ryan Day’s brothers investigating that too?
I’m a Michigan graduate and fan and I guess this seems fair.
Are the other teams not all doing this? I’m surprised if only Michigan is this bad, even just looking at the other top teams like Georgia or Ohio State.
Fair? Not sure it really is. The Big 10 commish is simply acting on public pressure, nothing more. Definitely not the results of any investigation that finds Harbaugh guilty of anyting at all.
Interesting precedent being set here; Tony Petitti is punishing a coach, without evidence he’s guilty of anything, in a way that can’t be reversed should investigations turn up nothing, all because other coaches and national media personalities are pressuring him. The Big Ten even admits that the conference “has not yet received any information indicating that Head Football Coach Harbaugh was aware of the impermissible nature of the sign-stealing scheme.”
Fine Harbaugh and the university up the wazoo. It makes them feel some pain for the unsportsmanlike conduct, but can be reversed should investigations clear Harbaugh of actual wrongdoing
The Big 10 commish (and a committee of reps from all Big 10 schools) is acting on evidence presented to them from the NCAA. The NCAA acts about as slowly as the Catholic Church - I’m surprised they had the self-awareness to realize this, and were proactive enough to hand off some responsibility to a body capable of acting with some relative sense of urgency.
None of the players are being punished. None of them have been ruled ineligible, none of their games have been canceled, none of their wins or records have been vacated. The Big 10 very easily could have banned Michigan from the Big 10 championship. That didn’t happen.
Cheating is cheating, regardless of whether or not it was effective. It sucks that Harbaugh employed a moron who made decisions that affected the entire program. But since the NCAA has been open about the fact that they presented evidence to the Big 10, fans of Michigan football should probably brace themselves. This is likely just the tip of the iceberg.
The Big 10’s own statement today admits they have no evidence of wrong doing by Harbaugh. Shoot first, get the evidence later. Nice precedent, Pertitti.
And your evidence for this is…what? Just a Munch hunch?
That’s what was on the big screen at the restaurant I had dinner at - that the NCAA presented Big10 officials with evidence. They didn’t say what the specific evidence was or how deep it went. I wouldn’t get your hopes up that Michigan will be getting out of this.
And yeah, when the Big 10 waits until the Michigan team is in the air on the way to Pennsylvania and leaves it up to social media to alert the team that the head coach won’t be on the sidelines tomorrow, the Big 10 can take their “integrity of the competition must be preeminent” and shove it. What a joke.