Simon and Dositheus

A basic idea of historical reconstruction is that if you figure that idea is a twig upon a branch upon a stump, then you can tell what the branch is like by finding the items of similarity shared by it’s twigs; then you can tell what the stump was like by finding the items of similarity between the branches. Every split introduces small changes from what it is grown off of, retaining some characteristics, losing others, but given enough of these splits you can compare and contrast to find the history.

So now, there are lots of accounts of the early beginnings of the Christian church, but those that were chosen to comprise the New Testament were chosen on, essentially, two standards:

  1. Being older works that appeared to have come from sources close to Jesus in the 1st century CE.
  2. Containing the accepted religious doctrine.

Most of the apocryphal works are from the 2nd century (at least that I considered) and also do not contain the accepted doctrine.

However, some may actually be older than that or reworkings of older material. And more importantly is that they are going to be descended from some sort of proto-Christian tradition, so though they are more removed, they do provide something of a view of how things might have been during the actual time of Christ via the technique explained above.

Before proceeding, though, let me note that I am just a guy who knows how to click links on the Wikipedia. I can’t read Aramaic, ancient Greek, or any of these. Nor have I made much effort to parse through the documents referenced by the Wikipedia articles. I accepted the summaries provided in the Wikipedia articles as given. And finally I’m an atheist, so when looking through stuff, I will assume human causes to effects, rather than divine intervention.

So first, four items that seem to come up often enough in various apocrypha that they seem likely to be true:

  1. John the Baptist probably founded Gnosticism.
  2. The Gospel of Matthew appears to be a rewrite of an earlier work commonly known as the Gospel of the Hebrews. Most likely it was expanded and removed references to the need to maintain Jewish law as a Christian (for instance, circumcision), added the virgin birth, and presented Mary as something of an embodiment of the Holy Spirit as well.
  3. Paul was not the leader of the church. The leader was James the Just, after Jesus died. And while Paul was probably rather opinionated and self-promoting, he really didn’t preach much that was probably outside the scope of what was accepted doctrine during his time. Simply, the need to preach to non-Gentiles ended with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, so that wing of the church disappeared and it was best to carry on with the gentile-focused wing which was being spearheaded by Paul. it’s possible that he shifted himself into a higher position than he deserved and ascribed to himself a greater link to Jesus than is merited (i.e. direct revelation), but this might have been added later by others.
  4. James the Just believed that he had seen Jesus resurrected, and died because he wouldn’t say otherwise.

But so while items 2 and 3 are interesting, they pretty much come down to that the New Testament seems likely to pretty closely conform to what the earliest founders of the church intended for the gentiles.

The interesting item is item 1.

One never hears much about Gnosticism and in general it’s simply something presented as a heresy in the Bible. And yet, Christianity is obviously tied to Gnosticism. You can’t just say that they are two separate things. Gnostic groups followed Jesus as the savior. Others followed John the Baptist and felt that Jesus had been an usurper. Yet other groups seem to have little to no relation to Christianity and are rather just an odd offshoot of Platonism. But in general, the more platonistic groups seem to be later (3rd and 4th century.)

The link with Platonism, then, makes one suspect that there had been a link there to begin with.

The “gentiles” or “non-circumcised” people most generally meant the Greeks when the church was starting, as this was the largest group of non-Jews about. Plato was of course Greek and, living in the 4th and 3rd centuries BCE, had certainly had plenty of time to spread his ideas among the Greek people by the time of John the Baptist.

So it isn’t hard to figure out where Gnosticism came from–a combining of Judaism and Platonism. And it’s easy to proceed on to say that the link between Christianity and Gnosticism must be that they are the same thing; Christianity is simply a less-Platonistic version of Gnosticism that triumphed over alternatives.

Now to some extent this is certainly so. The Christian idea of Satan certainly comes from the Gnostic Demiurge and presumably other smaller items.

But overall it doesn’t seem to hold up as an idea.

The problem is that Gnosticism generally presented itself in a similar manner as a mystery cult. The idea was that there were certain secrets (gnosis) that could only be revealed to you by someone higher up the food chain of the organization. Christianity doesn’t have this part.

Now while John the Baptist seems to be at the root of things which became Gnostic, the first big, heretical Gnostic teachings were supposedly started by his two disciples, Simon (AKA Simon Magus) and Dositheus.

It seems reasonable to say that perhaps John the Baptist brought in the idea of the demiurge, but it was his two disciples who brought in the gnosis.

Now so far, I’d say that I haven’t said anything which is likely to be wrong. I’m not a bible scholar, I’m just a guy who can click through links, but still this seems to be pretty easy a path to follow.

The thing that interested me was Simon Magus. This is a guy who’s a blatant charlatan, going around performing small tricks that fall entirely in the range of sleight of hand (assuming they’ve been exaggerated a bit) :

[

](Clementine literature - Wikipedia)

And he says that he is himself the embodiment of God on Earth and people should worship him.

Now this is a guy who is included in the Bible.

If you’re writing a religion based on the idea that there was this one guy who performed magic tricks was actually the embodiment of God on Earth, would you include a secondary character who is exactly the same, except a charlatan?

Let’s look at the beliefs of Simon’s religion (which did indeed have lots of followers.)

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](Simonians - Wikipedia)

Free sex! Magic! Depravement isn’t bad! Sounds like good times!

But to take a break from distant history, let’s consider modern history. What do you call a group where:

  1. It is lead by a single, charismatic leader who ascribes to himself special divinity.
  2. It professes to have secret knowledge that will save you, and you’ll receive more of it the more you suck up to people above you.
  3. It has questionable morality. For instance, the charismatic leader can bed any woman in the group and be alright by the moral teachings of the group.
  4. It has a dash of magic/aliens/etc. thrown in.

Why yes, it’s called a cult!

Back to our history lesson, but now let’s look at a particular Gnostic sect called Valentinianism.

The interesting things about this particular group of Gnostics is that it was nestled atop Christianity. You still went to church and read the New Testament and whatnot. But after that was done, there was another, secret level of Christianity for you to learn. And according to Valentinus he had learned these secrets (gnosis) from one of St. Paul’s students. So we’re talking something that’s very close to the core of the earliest church.

So is there any evidence that the Jews or the Romans or anyone viewed the early Christian church, for instance while Jesus was alive, as anything other than a cult? And what are cults like?

But while lots of the early guys were martyred, like James the Just, they also lived and worked to spread the religion for significant periods of time, traveling all around. It’s pretty much just when they started saying things publicly that didn’t fit basically within the rules of Judaism that the police showed up and stoned them to death.

James the Just taught that you needed to follow all of the rules of the Torah, and called himself essentially Jewish. He had some other stuff that was sort of “talking points” in the form of parables and whatnot, but there’s no reason to think that he was spouting off that the Torah was wrong or flawed all that loudly or publicly. It’s not until he gets surrounded and asked point blank whether or not he believed in heretical teachings that he was executed. Before that, he could always slip under the radar.

So now if you’re a cult leader and you’re living someplace where if you claim yourself to be God that you’re going to get executed, it’s a decent bet that you’re going to have two sets of books. Publicly you’re going to say something pretty near to Judaism. Privately it can be more sex, drugs, and rock n’ roll.

Let’s get back to Simon Magus.

As said before, it seems odd to include a charlatan parallel to Jesus in the Bible. So that bothered me. But the other thing that bothered me was how much of everything about his life seemed made up. No two stories match in their account of him.

Any record of any event by multiple is going to have differences, so it’s not impressive that the accounts of Jesus’ and Paul’s and everyone’s lives don’t mesh up exactly in the New Testament. But overall they do seem to try and present something like a historic accuracy, putting in the names of the places and people involved and any major events that happened around the same time so that a history can be built from it.

Just in the New Testament, Simon doesn’t match with anything that makes sense no matter how you fudge it, and especially not if you add in extra-biblical notes on him.

Not only is he a character who shouldn’t be in the book, everything about him seems to be made up.

So the options are that either a) he is a fictional character who was added for story purposes (e.g. to contrast with the real thing), or b) there was a cover up.

Again, up until this point, I still haven’t said anything which is terribly debatable. While not necessarily accurate, I have presented a plausible account of how this all ties together. But now it’s time to consider The Big Conspiracy Theory.

John the Baptist is Jesus’ teacher.

John the Baptist is also the teacher of Simon Magus and Dositheus, the possible founders of a sex cult that’s tied in to Christianity.

A guy who is in Jesus’ vicinity is known as Didymus Judas Thomas. Both “Didymus” and “Thomas” mean “twin”. One theory of why Twin Judas Twin is called that is because perhaps he was literally the twin brother of Jesus.

Simon Magus likely knows sleight of hand and other stage magic. In stage magic, having an identical twin is a very handy thing to have. It lets you flash from one end of the room to another instantaneously. You can be in two places at the same time.

Jesus, after dying, was seen wandering about by several people. One of the people who saw him “resurrected” was so certain that there had been a resurrection that he was willing to get stoned death his faith in that reality was so strong.

Simon and Dositheus battled internally for the upper hand in being the primary leader among their group of Gnostics.

A guy named Judas turned in Jesus to the authorities.

Twin Judas Twin (St. Thomas) is the apostle who went furthest away from the center of things after the death of Jesus. There is a Gnostic text titled the Acts of Thomas in existence. There is also a book called the Gospel of Thomas which begins by saying that the contents are secret teachings (gnosis?) personally passed on to Thomas, the twin brother of Jesus.

So, did Jesus and Judas have alter egos that they went by? It’s likely that if Jesus taught Gnostic, free-sex cult sort of stuff that he would indeed have just such a secondary name that he would go by. And if he was squirreling away a secret brother, it’s likely that his brother would have an alter ego as well, possibly always wearing a hood when he went out in public.

Indeed, if there was such an arrangement, you would only expect to see the most subtle of hints of it. :wink:

More likely, Gnostics attached the name of John the Baptist to their religion because he was a mythic figure.

Or Matthew Levi wrote the Gospel of the Hebrews & the “Matthew” we have is a completely different Greek text misidentified as a translation of same. Or, perhaps, the existence of the Gospel of the Hebrews is entirely mythical.

This seems to be the case.

I don’t consider Hegesippus’s account verifiable.

I tend to follow the Twentieth Century “Jewish position” on early Xtianity. You really should read some of Hyam Maccoby’s stuff.

I saw a bit on Paul from the online Jewish Encyclopedia. They had him down as an epileptic madman. Certainly a fun read, but that seems almost a more speculative writing than my own.

True. I wouldn’t bet on any depiction greater than that he was probably stoned to death for being a rabble-rowser. While that takes away some of the evidence for witnessing the resurrection of the Christ (which is a bonus for the twin theory), it still can be said that he was able to preach for quite some time before getting pulled in, so it was possible to lay low.

One doesn’t really get the sense that there was a shortage of politico-religious figures at that time and place.

Why assume that multiple, disparate gnostic groups link their history back to him for no reason beyond that it sounded good? It seems more natural to say that if ten different groups go, “Yup he started it.” To think there might be something to that.

And I mean that honestly. Perhaps I missed something about him that would have made him more mythic than one would assume from someone who’s big claim to fame seems to be denouncing the divorce of the local nobility. Obviously he set up a position for Jesus to fill, but that wouldn’t be something that would effect anyone outside of Jesus’ followers. So unless those Gnostic groups were linked to John/Jesus’ followers, why care about John?

There should be a sign on the section of the library that deals with early Christian history, a warning: turn back, this is the swamp that swallows great minds.

I, myself, find the subject fascinating, I’ve read maybe twenty-thirty books on the subject. Which is to say, I’ve dabbled, I’ve touched the barest of the surface, I don’t know shit. For every perfectly reasonable thesis, there is a perfectly reasonable antithesis. For every solidly based scriptural analysis, there is its direct and antagonistic opposite.

For me, the story of Simon Magus has one most intriguing aspect, out of the many, many such aspects. And that is according to the story related, it was apparently possible for a non-believer, a pagan, to use Jesus’ name in magical formula, for healing but most especially for exorcism of demons. (To hear Matthew tell it, demonic possession was widely prevalent in first century Palestine, demons must have vacationed there.) There is a biblical passage that recounts how two disciples were relating how they had been over in the next county, and some magician there was using Jesus’ name to cast out demons, and they got on his case about it. Copyright infringement, I suppose. And The Boss said, “Hey, lighten up, already! If they’re on our side, they’re on our side, that’s cool.” (Paraphrase)

We might consider whether or not to permit debates on this subject here, the hamsters will not forgive us readily if we burden them with a ten thousand page debate. And thats minimum.

Wait, so you’re saying that Christianity is basically based on The Prestige?

I don’t have nearly the knowledge necessary to participate in this debate, or consequently to assess the validity of your thesis, but that was a marvellously well-crafted OP. I’m not sure I really got exactly what you’re saying, though – that the twins Judas and Jesus had alteregos named Simon and Dositheus?

Well, even if there’s nothing to it, you should totally capitalize on the Christian crypto-mysticism wave tread lose by The DaVinci Code and put this theory into sensationalized novel form, you’ve shown yourself to be a better writer than Dan Brown already, plus you’ve done more and more thorough research than he ever did… :slight_smile:

Yes, and that they both played the part of “Jesus”, though probably one was dominant. The other just worked in the background to help set up and perform magic tricks. “Jesus” lead something like Valentinianism where there’s the standard Jewish doctrine which is public, the entry level of the cult, but as they found people who they trusted, they would offer to them further gnosis.

The public segment of the religion led to Christianity, and likely many members were unaware of the gnosis teachings, or that Jesus was taking back all the babes for “secret lessons”. Publicly, Jesus lived a life of asceticism and charity. Some of the church leaders would have been inducted into the Gnosis, others wouldn’t have received the knowledge, but would likely have an idea that Jesus was doing it. It is these who would have suppressed the information, perhaps even cynically acknowledging that the church wasn’t founded on the lofty ideals that had been purported, but stuck following since they had various charities where people would go starving if they stopped, and they’d break the hearts of friends and family in the church who hadn’t realized.

And besides realizing that Jesus had a secret sex cult, they likely realized that the one guy who was always running around with a hood covering his face was his identical twin brother.

Now people are looking at the church suspiciously, because it’s getting out that Jesus has been telling people that he’s God and probably people who are a bit less doe-eyed than all of the followers are noticing that there’s all these pregnant women wandering around the vicinity of Jesus.

Judas, the hooded guy, Jesus’s identical twin, gets more involved in the public section of the church, playing the part of Jesus for the masses. He’s no saint himself–he doesn’t lock himself up in the bedroom and shack up with babes all week like his brother, but he’s certainly taken advantage of the flock complicity–but he’s also not as charismatic or alpha-male as his brother. He’s the younger, submissive one of the twins.

The other high ups in the church, those not privy to the Gnosis have a secret meeting and they tell Judas that Jesus needs to be gotten rid of. People are looking at the church funny and pretty soon they’re all going to get killed if they don’t tone things back, and it’s a given that Jesus isn’t going to tone back. They pressure Judas into turning in his brother. It’s his job as their “leader” to deal with the unsightly Jesus.

So he does so, getting his brother crucified, and goes into hiding for a month. Judas, as “Jesus” comes out once to give a final lesson to some of the people in the church as the resurrected apparition of Jesus, and then he leaves Israel forever, becoming Thomas and teaching off outside of Rome, even going all the way to China to get away from anyone who might recognize him.

Well so while the public account of things is the account we all know, tales of the real story persist as rumors in the church. But when people talk about it, they do so in hushed voices and use alternate names for Jesus and Judas, calling them instead Simon and Dositheus so that anyone overhearing doesn’t catch on.

But since it’s secret talk and people are reluctant to talk about it, they spin it off as a separate story, making up false details that are contradictory about who or where Simon and Dositheus existed on Earth. So later accounts of these two men end up distorted and inconsistent.

Some people in the church who received the Gnosis from Jesus, however, they are either true believers or they notice a good thing when they see it, and they start to teach the Gnosis as well, preaching Christianity publicly, but keeping a special, secret flock to whom they teach the Gnosis. Unless you are one of the Gnostic preachers in the church, you’re mostly unaware of what’s going on. You maybe overhear things every once in a while about Gnosticism, but you think that people are talking about some other religious group.

But one guy named Irenaeus, he realizes that the thing is part of the church itself. He doesn’t know where it came from or why it would have any link to Christianity, but he wants to get rid of the sordid thing. He finds a couple of the followers and browbeats them into confessing, learning that the local bigwig is a guy named Valentinus. Iranaeus writes a big expose and leads a crusade to rid the church of the Gnostic teachings.

And so we’re left with exactly what we see.

" The first effect of not believing in God is to believe in anything." - G. K. Chesterton

So let’s see what we’ve got here. Massive conspiracies, super-secret sex cults, twins posing as each other, secret documents concealed for centuries, assassinations to cover up the truth, and hooded international man of mystery. If we could work some extraterrestrials in here, we’d be ready for prime time.

I really don’t see what you find so disturbing about the inclusion of Simon Magus in the Bible. Most likely he was included because he existed. If memory serves me correctly, he gets about two sentences in the Book of Acts. The explanation for this is pretty clear. He was some low-life charlatan who tried to make a fast buck (or a fast shekel?) with a bag of tricks. Upon hearing about Christianity, he thought that he could hook up with the Christians and increase his earnings. That failed and he went away, and was never mentioned again. Some centuries later, certain Christian writers needed a villain to blame for various heretical ideas, so they crafted stories about how Simon was responsible. That would adequately explain the information, or lack thereof, about Simon.

Not quite. You’re projecting modern-day understandings of cults onto the ancient past. There’s absolutely no evidence that Jesus had a harem, or those James was shooting crack, or that any figure from early Christianity was behaving like a drunken frat boy. In fact, splinter groups that broke off from the Jewish mainstream during the Second Temple Period generally wanted a more strict, less permissive interpretation of their religion. One good example would be the Essenes, of Dead Sea Scrolls fame.

I will say it’s still less confusing than most fan invented explanations for events in comic books.

“Let’s get rid that guy before he gets us all killed!” = Massive conspiracy? You’ll have to explain that to me.

Secret sex cult = Something I see on TV every day. Are you disagreeing that my four defining characteristics of a cult are far from what is commonly seen in modern day?

Twins posing as each other = This is the only part of anything that isn’t highly plausible and supported by significant documentation. I.e. it’s a fun idea, but I’d agree that it’s unlikely. More likely the resurrection was fully made up.

Secret documents concealed for centuries = :confused: Where do you see that? All of the apocrypha were documents known and referred to by early Christian writers. They disappeared from the planet because they were designated as heretical and the groups who would have kept making new copies through the ages were suppressed if they were in Europe. Groups who weren’t in Europe did continue on with their versions of events and so you get things like the modern day Mandaeans and the St. Thomas Christians. Plus lots of the documents don’t even exist in modern day–i.e. via archaeology–only via the descriptions and quotes of early Christian writers like Iranaeus.

assassinations to cover up the truth = :confused: As the writer himself, I think I can be fairly confident that that isn’t in anything I wrote.

The only parts that aren’t significantly supported by evidence is the twin thing and what led Judas to have Jesus offed. More likely than my version is that Jesus didn’t have a twin and Judas Iscariot was an asshole.

Epiphanius noted that the Simonian movement had lasted all the way until 367 AD. Epiphanius, Iranaeus, and Hippolytus all give accounts of the Gnostic doctrines of Simonians and present them as a real, existing group. A guy who gets his own personal cult that lasts hundreds of years, has people saying that he flew through the air and performed other miracles, etc. isn’t someone who is merely a two-bit charlatan of no importance.

While lesser, it can certainly be said that he accomplished the same things as Jesus. Point in fact, he might have been almost entirely analogous to Jesus with the only difference being that a great salesman and popularizing-craftsman like Paul didn’t happen to tack himself onto it.

The evidences are that:

  1. What we do know about Gnostic groups closely conforms to modern day cults.
  2. There’s no reason to think that humans are a different species than the people of 2000 years ago, and hence there’s no reason to expect that the group dynamics of a cult would be different between now and then.
  3. Gnosticism is significantly linked to Christianity, claiming the same beginning under John the Baptist.
  4. Dual-layer Christian/Gnostic groups existed inextricably right from the get-go.

Ummm, I’m afraid I can’t quite agree with. Let’s start with your claim that “Dual-layer Christian/Gnostic groups existed inextricably right from the get-go”. As evidence you cite Epiphanius, Iranaeus, and Hippolytus. The first comes four centuries after the life of Jesus, the later two were writing around the end of the second century. They may reasonably be classified as early Christian writers, but they are obviously a long way from the earliest. For comparisons purposes, the 150 years separating Iranaeus of Lyon from the life of Jesus Christ are about the same length of time separating us from the American Civil War. Now if somebody claimed there was a mass movement sweeping America during the Civil War, but that movement was first mentioned in 2009, would you believe it? In your OP you say that the gnostic gospels and other writings are “descended from some sort of proto-Christian tradition”, but where’s the evidence for that?

If you step back for a moment and think about this, you should see the flaw in your argument. If you’re an atheist, then you’re willing to dismiss writings such as the Gospel of Mark (roughly 35 years after the fact), the teachings of Paul (10-20 years after the fact), and various early Christian creeds (just a few years after the fact). If so, then how can you simultaneously insist that we must accept apocryphal writing about the life of Jesus written 150-200 years after the fact?

What we do know about Gnostic groups is actually very little; in some ways this is why they’re so popular, since everybody can just project their own ideas and desires onto the Gnostics. What we do know is pretty much the opposite of what you believe. The Gnostics were not sex-crazed maniacs. Rather, they and their offshoots, such as the Manichees, were generally very strict and unforgiving about everything including sex. As for your insistence that all cults are sex cults because your TV says so, I think that deserves further consideration. TV also says that housewives are becoming dominatrixes in order to whip the bankers responsible for the financial crisis, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. More likely, the people on TV talk about sex a lot because it gets an audience.

Epiphanius (c. 320-400), Iranaeus (c. 140?-202), and Hippolytus (c. 170-235) were reviewing and quoting works which had been written earlier than their own time. They attributed Gnostic works to their authors like Valentinus (c. 100-160), Basilides (c. 130).

Josephus (c. 37-100) wrote about Simon Magus around 94 CE as a historical figure, the later authors write about him as a contemporary of Jesus. Hegesippus (c. 110-180) wrote about Dositheus, and Josephus may also have.

Iranaeus says that the Gospel of John was written as an attack on the beliefs of Cerinthus, placing Cerinthus around or before 90 CE.

The Gnostic works found at Nag Hammadi are generally dated to the 2nd century, but if you look over the arguments for this dating, the dating is based on the idea that “Gnostic text thereby 2nd century.” There’s no reason to make that assumption, and it’s probably better not to.

The Gospel of Thomas does not appear to depend on the canonical works for its information, it refers to James the Just as the leader of the church, and what all–if any–Gnostic sentiments it has are minimal. Overall there’s no particular reason to think it is a 2nd century work than that it is in with Gnostic texts.

The Gospel of Truth was probably either written by Valentinus or one of his disciples and thus is unlikely to be any earlier than 130 CE. 150 is probably a good bet.

The Apocryphon of James does not depend on the canonical works, features minimal Gnostic tendencies, and considers James and Peter to be the key players. According to Paul’s own testimony, the big guys before him were James, Peter and John.

The Apocryphon of John could be anytime previous to 185 CE. It considers itself to be the teachings of John the Apostle, one of the three big guys of the Old Church.

1st Apocalypse of James - Considers James the Just to be a big guy, talks about a Valentinian-style Sophia but doesn’t seem to be Valentinian. Thus it is possibly pre-Valentinus.

2nd Apocalypse of James - Considers James the Just to be a big guy. The gnostic cosmology is quite primitive.

Coptic Apocalypse of Peter - Considers itself to be descended from Peter, but is specifically directed at a Gnostic group or defending Gnosticism and so is probably 3rd century.

The Gospel of Judas - Considers itself as being descended from Judas. It is referred to by Iranaeus so is earlier than 185.

Now one thing can be said for certain, nearly all of these date themselves back to a pre-Paul tradition. So even if they are not written in the 1st century, it’s likely that they are echoes of information that are from the Paul-Peter-John period of time.

Another thing that can be said is that Simonian Gnosticism existed within the 1st century. Given that Simon is written of (c. 94) as being a contemporary of Jesus and John the Baptist

A third point is that Gnostic texts start after or in sync with Christianity. Outside of some Sethian documents which are written as extensions of OT stories, nothing in the Gnostic libraries seems to be pre-Jesus, and everything post-Jesus is concerned with John the Baptist, Jesus, or the apostles. So clearly they are linked.

A fourth point is that the Gnostic leaders who are listed as contemporaries of Jesus, Simon and Dositheus, claim their history back to John the Baptist. The 2nd century Gnostics, Valentinus and Basilides, both claim their information from a “disciple of Peter” and consider Jesus to be the founder. The above Gnostic works, featuring a less developed cosmology than those 2nd century Gnostics, claim their sources of information as coming from James, Peter, Thomas, or John and consider Jesus to be the big guy. This seems to establish a three level hierarchy:

  1. John the Baptist is the guy, information is direct from him to Gnostic leader.
  2. Jesus is the guy, information is direct from him to apostle.
  3. Jesus is the guy, information is taught from a disciple of Peter.

Now even assuming that Gnosticism was never anything but a group of usurping cults, you would assume that they’re going to claim that their source of info is directly from whoever the riff-raff that they’re recruiting from would view as being a credible and ascendant personality. There’s no point in saying, for instance, that you have the skinny straight from Bill Clinton when you could just as easily say that you’re getting the word right from Barack Obama. If you’re going to lie, go with the lie that gives you the most power.

In Christian writing, John the Baptist is just a guy who appears in a couple of scenes. He’s just not all that important. And that’s things written between 40-100 CE. John the Baptist probably died around 30 CE and was probably only really active starting around 15-20 CE. So for someone to want to link themselves to him rather than Jesus, they’d have to do so between 20-40 CE.

Valentinus and Basilides can be clearly positioned as starting up around 130 CE.

So to bookmark things, it’s likely that the above listed apocrypha (except the Gospel of Truth) were written between 40-130 CE. That’s no better nor worse than the canonical works.

But the main point is, again, that presuming that all Gnosticism starts with Simon and Dositheus, there’s no reason to think that they weren’t active between 20-40 CE. Given that Mandaeism is popularly linked back to Dositheus and it is certainly Gnostic, this presumption seems a decent one.

When did I ever dismiss the Gospel of Mark or the writings of Paul? I’m employing the criterion of multiple attestation. For that, the more works, apocryphal and canonical alike, the better. I’m not chopping any off.

And as pointed out, all Gnostic works lead back to James, Peter, and John. Even if they were written 150-200 years later, which doesn’t seem to be true, they’re likely based on a pre-Paul tradition. Using the multiple attestation methodology, you’re going to see pre-Paulian results.

You’re talking about modern day Gnostic groups.

Simonians: “The Simonians were variously accused of using magic and theurgy, incantations and love-potions; declaring idolatry a matter of indifference that was neither good nor bad, proclaiming all sex to be perfect love, and altogether leading very disorderly, immoral lives.”

Dositheus: “while some of the Dositheans lead loose lives, others preserve a rigid morality, refrain from the use of meat, observe the rite of circumcision, and are very strict in keeping the Sabbath and in observing the laws of Levitical purity.”

Mandaeism (modern) : “Mandaeans believe in marriage and procreation, and in the importance of leading an ethical and moral lifestyle in this world, placing a high priority upon family life. Consequently, Mandaeans do not practice celibacy or asceticism.”

Valentinianism: Features the “bridal chamber”, i.e. bedding, as the chief sacrament. This is tied in to the Sophia/Jesus (female/male) relationship.

Basilides: …no idea. It does feature Sophia among their doctrine.

Sethianism: Also lists Sophia in their doctrine.

I’ll also note that if you go through the above apocrypha, the female characters, Mary, Salome, etc. are ranked much higher, as apostles in their own right.

It’s hard to say what all things the groups did or didn’t do since physical rites aren’t written down and since sex may never have been doctrine. But it can be said for certain that as a cult becomes a more traditional religion, it’s going to mellow out and take on the social mores of the cultures around it. It’s also going to change with time.

So…are you arguing that my four characteristics of a cult do not follow what examples we can see in modern day? I’ll agree that there are non-sexual cults like the Heaven’s Gate group (if I recall correctly), but I’d generally roll with statistical probability.

But even if Jesus wasn’t having sexual escapades, what difference does that make? It has no bearing on the overall reconstruction wherein it’s likely that early Christianity had the markings of a mystery religion (i.e. a cult of some form), that there were more people than just Jesus claiming to be God on Earth, more people than Jesus purporting to perform miracles, a good claim that John the Baptist was the one who really developed the basic philosophy of the early church, and that fully successful religions like Mandeanism–which continue on into modern day–could just as likely have become the most popular religion on the planet had history gone a different way.

We all could think that John the Baptist was the true prophet and Jesus a lying usurper.

I’m presenting a non-magical history that agrees with what can be ferreted out and pieced together via logic and statistics. Statistically speaking, and seeing that the early church likely had a more equal sexes view, it’s more likely that Jesus was getting it on with Mary Magdalene, but I couldn’t really care one way or the other since that’s not really the point.

Gee, I hadn’t realized Chesteron was an idiot.