Since when is anti-Semitism a liberal idea?

The BBQ Pit
81

And no wonder. There was, it appeared, about to be a negotiated peace and the fulfillment of the two-state plan that had seemed so obviously necessary ever since, well, the Balfour Declaration. What was not to like? Or are you suggesting that “anti-Zionism” is somehow simply a base instinct, essentially synonymous with Jew-hate, and not an expression of a love of justice and peace? Sure looks that way from here, pal.

No, that is stereotyping in itself. Tell you what, change the names in that paragraph and see what difference it makes. Tell us what the bulldozing of villages in the West Bank and the destruction of most of Lebanon’s infrastructure do to enhance Israel’s security. Tell us what “settling” Israelis in the West Bank is supposed to accomplish. Tell us how those tactics are merely a response to, and in no way a cause of, Arab hatred of Israel. Can you?

Explain, please. *What * differences? In what way do those differences fundamentally negate any claim to the justice of their cause? If, that is, you meant what you said about the need to “educate” “the left”, instead of simply stereotyping, lumping, strawmanning, and excoriating them, as this post of yours counterproductively and ignorantly does.

82

I don’t know that anyone here in the West has ever been comfortable with that dichotomy, but it was certainly Politely ignored for a long time. The creation of Israel got its momentum from a desire to redress the wrongs of history, the Holocaust most especially, but as that background fades into history our longstanding, and deeper, commitment to the ideals of democracy is still strong. We can still support a democratic state, but it’s much harder to support a theocratic one.

Don’t ignore the Wall, an ugly thing in itself and especially when you note that it takes away the bulk of Palestine’s fertile land as well.

I’m still hoping to see his explanation to the contrary.

I understand there was a proposal in Commons that Uganda be designated the Jewish homeland, for purposes of fulfilling Balfour. Wouldn’t that have been interesting?

True. There’s been a tremendous amount of talk about the Arabs recognizing Israel’s right to exist, and for the most part that’s been obtained. But we’ve heard very little about Israel recognizing Palestine’s right to exist, on the West Bank and Gaza. When can the Arabs expect to get that? Ever? Not if some of the posts we see here are representative.

83

It’s clear that there is a difference between the US and Canadian left with their counterparts in Europe. What’s been happening in Europe has been quite scary, and quite frankly I’m relieved not to be living there right now.

This article for example, was written in response to the London march in which ‘peace’ protestors proclaimed solidarity with Hezbollah. Israel’s right to exist - as opposed to criticisms of elements of Israeli policy - is questioned routinely in the European media and in left wing circles.

Although the Canadian example cited by severus is heartening, there are manifestations that this sort of stance does exist on the American continent. I’ve seen photos of demos in San Francisco with placards comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and worse. These scenes are not even that surprising any longer from a European perspective, but I take it that it is not the case in the US and Canada.

84

While I disagree with all such claims, I don’t see how they’re necessarily “anti-Semitic”. Saying “the Israeli government’s policies are evil and wrong”, or even “the Israeli state is not a legitimate political entity”, even when accompanied by extremely exaggerated and wingnutty rhetoric, does not necessarily imply “Jews are bad”.

I don’t deny that many opponents of Israel are also anti-Semitic, but the anti-Israelism by itself doesn’t prove it.

(“Quite scary”? To whom? As an American of Jewish descent who’s been living in the Netherlands for the past two years, and regularly speaking with Dutch Jewish friends, I haven’t noticed a climate of fear among Jews or anti-Semitic sentiment in the population as a whole. I do see strong opposition to Israel—in fact, I have non-Jewish Dutch friends who even boycott Israeli products—but not anti-Semitism per se. )

85

At least the PLO gives me a courtesy reacharound but I have to beg it to use a condom. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Like people have said before, this mythological anti-israeli Left you’re talking about should never be allowed to work in Hollywood again. What are the [del]69[/del] [del]57[/del] 102 names of known leftists and fellow travellers, mr chairman?

That’s why everyone on the left loves Al Qaeda: didn’t you see the footage of American college students dancing in the campus sidewalks on 9/11?

86

Thank you, severus for saying what I was trying to say, late last noc. You said it much more eloquently.
Puzzler -this is not GD, and I suck at linking, so no cite. If you read my posts, you would see that I gleaned my view from decades of watching this crap on the news-nightly, as domestic troubles were ignored or not covered and other global issues also neglected. News has since moved on, and via the internet one can get news about anything and anywhere-the objectivity of that news is debatable, but so was the network coverage all those many years. As for higher standards–yes, I expect more than just tepid attempts at peace all the while teaching children to hate.

I seem to recall the peace proposal at Camp David as being somewhat disingenous of the Israelis–didn’t it essentialy carve Palestine up into bits? I would have said no to that as well, if I were Palestinian. While I don’t like how Israel came to be(I distrust religous fervor, no matter the religion), it is here now, so we must all deal with reality. It makes no sense to move Israel–and no leader or politician or thinker espouses that “solution”. I take the point about the ice in the oven, though–did they think it would be easy? That people who had lived there for centuries would just toddle off and say, OK-here, have my house and my livelihood?

And for all this talk of Jews having to have this particular stretch of land, one would think that over the centuries it might have sunk in(to all involved-USA, UN etc) that conquering a land is a time consuming and difficult thing. Most nations (America included) did it with superior fire power and knowledge. Israel didn’t have those luxuries. So, maybe, just maybe unrelenting hostility won’t work and other means should be tried? Just sayin’.
OK- Israel didn’t bomb the shit out of Lebanon–so, it only bombed the shit out of PART of it. A nice distinction and much comfort, I am sure to all those Lebanese without homes and relatives now. No doubt they are right now singing Israel’s praises for its attempt to rid their own country of its own people. No, I don’t mean that the Lebanese all support Hezbellah etc. All I can say is that if a foreign nation came to my neighborhood, bombed my house and killed my family, all because it was trying (not even succeeding, mind you, just trying) to kill some criminals, I would not think too kindly of that country. Christ, it’s not quantum theory! It’s simply human nature.

Nowhere have I said that the Palestinians are in the right or innocent or the victims. I see the victim-Israel card being played in the stories told on the news–somehow it is always innocent Israelis who are blown up on buses, never innocent Palestinians thrown in jail or shot in the streets. Again, it ain’t rocket science–you are both guilty as hell of violence and hatred. Whatcha gonna do bout it?

It looks like bomb more and get even MORE aggressive-yeah, that’ll work. That is sure to engender good relations in the region. Lord knows some of the countries are bass-ackward when it comes to human rights–so who is in a position to be a model of just and humane treatment for not just its citizens, but to its criminals and yes, even the terrorists? Guess it’s not Israel. Maybe Kuwait–I’ll take a constitutional monarchy over an insanely aggressive and paranoid democracy any day.

I also think that you need to get past the party platform stuff. Much better instead of trying to ram words back down someone’s throat is to find common ground (and no, I don’t think Israel has even tried this), work on negotiating trade agreements that benefit both nations and stop teaching kids to hate non-Jews, as in Muslims and Palestinians.

On the Palestinian side, I think that they need to stop teaching their kids to hate Jews, work on trade agreements as well, and crack down on the rogue elements that roam the region. They should ask the UN for help in this. They also need to accept the fact that Israel is not going away.

Perhaps I am naive and stupid. I don’t know. But you will not get peace until there is justice–and a justice perceived as fair by both sides. Yeah-the “Arabs” may hate you-but you are still there, after 50 years. They will deal with you-you need to figure out how. They need to grow up and enter the 20th century (I am not asking them to enter the 21st yet).

[quote=gumFew on the left are willing to take into account the views of those who are victims of terrorism. The left prefers to ignore the potential genocidal implications of what it advocates. [/quote]

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. You oh so disingenously neglect to take into account Israeli aggression. It all happens in a vaccuum, no? Israel is sitting, minding its own business, and those Big Bad Palestinians just are so mean to poor little Israel. Nonsense.

This whole genocidal thing–which is it? We have one poster who says that Jews are embarassed by the Holocaust. Now we have you, convinced that anything short of full embrasure of Israel’s stance is tantamount to “genocidal implications”. Paranoid much? Stop playing the Holocaust card–it shuts down dialogue. Do you seriously believe that any nation is plotting to destroy Israel as soon as it gets a chance? This is propaganda nonsense, fed to people stressed with constant fear and memories of horrid treatment that is centuries old. If this is the current thinking in Israel, there is no hope for you, from where I sit. The cycle of agression will breed more terrorists which feeds more aggression and on ad infinitum.
And guess what? You will always be hated by someone. No-not neccessarily because of your faith, but because you exist. Get used to it-as you well know, it will never go away. I know I am hated places in the world, not for me, eleanorigby, but because I am American; I am female; I am white; I am (relatively) well off; I am Christian,and for a few, yes, because I am eleanorigby–I could keep going. Stop looking for universal approbation and you might be less likely to find Jew-haters under beds.

Last thing: to my mind , Israel wants to be right and it wants peace. Even in marriages, people know that is not often possible.

87

Try harder.

88

Left-wing antipathy with Israel started in the '70’s and 80’s, when the left was overtaken by peace activists, nuclear freeze advocates, etc. At the time, Israel was a strong military ally of the U.S., and armed to the teeth. Back when the left was really about nuclear non-proliferation, Israel developed the bomb. When the left was marching about the re-militarism of the Reagan years, Israel was arming itself to the teeth. Israel was always the counter-example to claims that we could all live in peace if we just dropped our weapons, that we needed to disarm the public to prevent crime, etc.

Add to that the left’s natural tendency to side with the underdog - after the 1967 war and the 1973 war, Israel was no longer seen as an underdog, and therefore lost the support of many on the left.

Then there’s the reflexive anti-Americanism by proxy, which the exteme left often uses to hate any country that is friendly the U.S. You can see evidence of that today - A lot of lefties like Venezuela and Chavez, despite his thuggish nature and repression, because he’s sticking a thorn in the side of the U.S. If the same government, with the same policies, was a strident ally of America and friend of George Bush, the left would hate it.

Throw in honest-to-god anti-semitism by a bunch of fellow travelers, and there you go.

89

I know quite a bit about the peace process. I know quite a bit about the history of the situation. I’ve read all the UN debates from 1948. If you mean by “throw back in one’s face” Israel not accepting all Palestinian proposals directly, then you’ve got a point. But that’s not what I mean. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians need to accept the other’s proposals directly, that’s negotiation.
The old Palestinian government seemed to be negotiating in good faith. Then they got tossed out, and the response to the withdrawal from Gaza (a step in the peace process) was rockets, kidnapping, and the refusal of Hamas to do anything. Do you deny that there are major Palestinian blocs against peace? That they are much bigger, and much more out of control, than the Israeli blocs?

I’d still like to hear of a Palestinian peace initiative that got thrown back in their faces. I don’t recall one myself.

90

That got thrown in their faces. I was getting optimistic there for a while - the previous government seemed serious about peace, the Palestinian state got recognized, Israel withdrew from Gaza, the settlements were on the way out (slowly, but going.) Let’s remember that not all Palestinians are anti-peace, and there has been a big improvement in this. Not big enough, alas, but let’s make sure to recognize the real progress that was made.

91

What about the 2002 Arab League proposal? Israel came back with its usual stalling tactic of “Yeah, sounds swell, but we won’t consider actually doing anything about it until all terrorism stops.” This tactic means that as long as there’s even one Palestinian extremist who’s willing to commit a murderous attack against Israelis, Israel can simply refuse to take any serious steps toward a two-state solution. While, as I said, I unconditionally condemn terrorist tactics and agree that all terrorism against Israelis should stop, I think the Israeli government has been deliberately demanding the impossible here in order to hang onto Palestinian territory as long as it can, preferably forever.

What makes you think that the settlements in general were “on the way out”? AFAICT, a comparatively small number of settlements were being dismantled as a heavily publicized PR move, while the settler populations elsewhere were being quietly increased. What grounds do you have for thinking that Israel is really serious about vacating the occupied territories? Because I would be very encouraged if I thought that was really likely to happen, but at present it seems to be mostly window-dressing.

92

And what about the Ugandans? It’s not like Uganda is empty, after all.

Let’s consider the situation in 1947. There were Jews in Palestine, like it or not, and they didn’t get there from invading. Before the war the Western countries, including the US, were extremely reticent about accepting Jewish refugees who weren’t famous or rich. True, the Holocaust hadn’t happened, but the Nuremberg laws had, so there was no doubt that Jews were being oppressed.
During the war the West studiously ignored evidence of the Holocaust, and had very good reasons, for them, for not doing anything to slow it down. When the pictures of the emaciated survivors and the piles of bones came out, most of the West had a temporary, for some, change of heart.

Jews had no place to go back to - except Israel. Uganda? Get real.

Add to that the fact that most Arabs were pro-Nazi. The UN resolution, if you remember, did not ignore the Palestinians, but compromised by partitioning Palestine into Jewish and Palestinian states. After the war, if you remember, the West Bank was not under Israeli control. Why no Palestinian state then? Perhaps because the Arabs thought it should be all or nothing?

One side was willing to live with the will of the International Community, and one wasn’t. Which was which?

Have you not been reading the papers the last five years? You are aware that Israel now accepts a Palestinian state, right? And that they withdrew from Gaza? I don’t understand how you can even say what you did, unless you read nothing but Arab propaganda.

93

Liberals are re-assessing Israel, and for good reason, but the notion that any but the fringes are pro-Arab is nucking futs. See, back in the 30s to the 60s, liberalism and Israel and Jews were spot-welded together. Being open to Jews went right along with liberalism’s tenets of being against the oppression of minorities. And a lot of liberalism’s leadership was Jewish.

The conservatives, OTOH were the enemies of Jews, doing their usual thing of supporting their bigot base by “wink and nod” stuff without openly supporting the sort of anti-Jewish bigotry that got Leo Frank lynched here in Georgia in 1915 (Tom Watson, one of the bigoted leaders who stirred up the sentiment that got Frank lynched was elected to the Senate based on his bigotry in 1920, and no Mariettan, to that city’s eternal shame, ever came forward with the names of the lynchers, though many knew who they were (almost certainly, a lot of civic leaders were involved, lowlifes wouldn’t get that kind of protection).

Anyway, by the 1950s anti-Semitism had settled down mostly to the level of country-club racism (“no Jews allowed”) as portrayed in the film “Auntie Mame” and the conservatives were DEFINITELY the leaders of the country club racists. With the civil rights era, Jews and blacks alike went with liberalism and because they knew the conservatives were in bed with the racists (in general).

But in the 1990s, things began to shift, largely because anti-Jewish bigotry, while still present in the US, had become such a political nonstarter with so few strong supporters that there was no point in relying on it for support – it would be like either party putting out a major effort on behalf of Unitarianism. Meanwhile, the neo-cons got powerful on the right, and they were big on Israel as a friend of the US in the Mideast (logically enough) and the religious right started thinking of a Jewish Israel as a necessary element to the End Times which is gonna start Real Soon Now by their reckoning, so for their typically whacko reasons, they support Istael, so now isteal is beloved of the right, too.

Thing is, Israel no more cares about who’s in charge of the US than the average American cares which factions hold the majority in the Knesset. They realize they need us, but if the benefits are great enough and risks small enough, they’ll betray our interests for their own just like any other Middle Eastern government. Israelis have a right to this attitude, just as they have a right to kick ass when a neighboring goverhnment lets one of its political parties lob rockets at their citizens. But we really should be cognizant of the fact that there isn’t a hell of a lot of loyalty between states, especially in the Middle East. It’s more like convergent interests which change as times change.

But the liberals care who runs America, so they’re looking at Israel a lot more carefully now, wondering if all that lovely Jewish money is gonna be backing the forces of repression somewhere down the road, just as all that Catholic and Protestant money so often has in the past. So now, liberals aren’t so sure that Israelis and the Jews who put Zionism above all else are their friends, because historically, the only allegiance wealth has ever had is to more wealth, no matter what it’s ethnic or religious background.

Some liberal fringe groups have picked up on that, and run with it with their usual zeal but they no more represent liberalism than the Neo Nazis represent the right. Most liberals well understand that most of the Middle East is so backward that Ann Coulter would be called a moderate if she lived there, if they didn’t kill her for being such a mouthy woman. Probably they would do both.

See, everything is easy to understand if you put it in historical context.

94

Wow! A cogent post from Evil Captor…who’da thunk it? :smiley:

Seriously, though…good post.

95

How is it anti-semitic? By expressing support for an organisation like Hezbollah, which says:

and many more where that came from…
Maybe the peace marchers didn’t get the memo(s). :dubious:

If the London march had consisted off calling on both sides to stop the madness, I would have been there, at least in spirit as I no longer live in the UK. These are people I’ve marched alongside for other causes. Now I find myself feeling I no longer belong on the left. I still identify with most aspects of left/liberal thinking, so could it be that they have strayed? I think the degree of blind one-sidedness required to interpret the Middle East situation in such black and white terms as “Israel - evil/Palestinians - saints” has to be the result of anti-semitism at least in some cases. A fair-minded person’s analysis is more on the lines of most of the posters here, who wish for a peaceful solution and are able to see right and wrong on both sides.

It’s good to know that things are saner in Holland. That’s the way it should be. However, this does not appear to be the case in European countries. this is pretty scary, IMO. I can provide a couple of personal anecdotes where otherwise seemingly reasonable people on the European left either (i) expressed overt anti-semitism - as in saying they hate Jews; or (ii) shunned me after they found out I was Jewish.

To address the OP - no, a true liberal is not - or should not be - anti-semitic.

96

Of course. But I don’t think we’d be hearing today about the Ugandans’ instinctive, implacable, religion-based hatred of Jews as the only plausible explanation for their forcible opposition to the taking by force of their land.

The proposal in Commons was never taken seriously even then, I hope you know.

Right, there was an extensive and activist network of Zionists promoting Jewish emigration to Palestine, inspired by the UK government’s commitment to it, proceeding mostly by buying land piecemeal. Israel probably couldn’t have been created in 1947 if there hadn’t been a substantial Jewish population there already, recent arrivals though they were.

By then, certainly, there was no other option, if there ever had been one.

Or anti-colonizing-power? The enemy of my enemy etc. But you’re right, that recoiled on them.

You have the facts, more so than some posters here. Add to that that a large, large number of the Palestinian families had been living in what became Israel for literally countless generations, and could remain only as despised hired help if they stayed there, and you have the foundation of a refusal to accept the interlopers’ state’s right to exist.

Yes, but on a just basis? One that accepts that they’re actually people with rights and grievances, who have to be treated fairly? That will make them not a close-in enemy but neighbors? I don’t see any recognition here of that, and there certainly can’t be peace or even security without it.

And went right back in. After bulldozing the place indiscriminately. And are still there. Your point?

Looks like you’re yet another example of the “we’re right simply because we’re us, screw anybody else” mindset that is at the heart of the problem.
Sam, you’re just never going to get over your notion that “the Left” is a monolith, are you? The world makes more sense if you pretend you don’t have to even try to understand any differing views, doesn’t it?

97

How lazy do you have to be to not click on the link, and see for yourself? Since you are, though, I’ll summarize the first page of results.

[ul]
[li]Human Rights Watch: Israel Dropping Cluster Bombs on Lebanese Civilians[/li][li]Israel Warns 300000 Lebanese To Flee Homes as Ground Invasion Nears. US Arming of Israel: How US Weapons Manufacturers Profit From Middle East Conflict[/li][li]Israel and Lebanon saw continued violence on the last day before a UN ceasefire. South Lebanon continued to come under intense Israeli bombardment Sunday[/li][li]Israel Bombardment of Lebanon Enters Sixth Day, Hezbollah Strikes Haifa. Hezbollah, the United States and the Context Behind Israel’s Offensive on Lebanon[/li][li]In March of this year, a study on the role of the Israel lobby in US foreign …[/li][li]NATIONAL EXCLUSIVE: Hezbollah Leader Hassan Nasrallah Talks With Former US Diplomats on Israel, Prisoners and Hezbollah’s Founding[/li][li]Israel Bombs Hezbollah Headquarters in Lebanon, while Airstrikes Continue in [*]Israel continues to pound targets in Southern Lebanon with missile and[/li][li]Kofi Annan Says Israel’s Fatal Attack on UN Force in Lebanon was “Apparently Deliberate”[/li][li]Israel has intensified its attacks on Lebanon as warplanes launched fresh strikes on Beirut airport, communication networks, Lebanese roads and a power …[/li][li]Israel Accused of Carpeting Lebanon With Cluster Bombs[/li][li]Israel has sent as many as 18000 troops into Lebanon as part of a … The ground assault comes as Israel continues to bomb areas around South Lebanon. …[/li][li]COSATU president Willie Madisha called the “apartheid state” in Israel worse than … In the early morning hours today, Israel widened its offensive against …[/li][li]HRW Emergencies Director Peter Bouckaert speaks from Beirut on the bombing of Qana, Israel’s use of cluster bombs, phosphorous weapons and depleted uranium[/li][li]Lebanon Under Siege: Dahr Jamail Reports from Beirut on How Israel Air Strikes Have … [/li][li]Israel’s ambassador to the United States, Daniel Ayalon, was questioned last … He grilled Ayalon on Israel’s targeting of civilians and use of cluster …[/li][li]Bush and Blair Agree to Deploy Multinational Force to Southern Lebanon; Residents in Lebanon Feel Helpless with Israel and Hezbollah; Critics Suspicious of …[/li][li]As Israel expands air strikes on Lebanon, an estimated 250000 Iraqi Shias have gathered … Israel’s aerial attack on the suburbs of Beirut is intensifying. …[/li][li]Calling Israel’s war in Lebanon a “catastrophe,” the former president of Morgan Stanley International talks about the democrats’ “huge mistake” in backing …[/li][li]Lebanon announces its intent to seek reparations from Israel as the invasion death … Israel bombs bunkers seeking leaders of Hizbullah in Beirut today …[/li][li]Demonstrators March on Brooklyn Bridge Protesting US Support for Israel … He said he targeted the Jewish community center because of Israel’s foreign …[/li][li]Israel Launches Heaviest Bombing of Lebanon in 24 Years; … Israel has said it holds Lebanon responsible for the soldiers’ capture and views it as an "act …[/li][li]Kofi Annan: Israeli Raid Violated Ceasefire; Israel Accused of Carpeting Lebanon With Cluster Bombs; Israeli Gov’t Abducts Two More Palestinian …[/li][li]Protests Across US and Around the World Call for End to Israel Bombardment … Protests were held around the world yesterday in response to Israel’s assault …[/li][li]UN commanders say that Israel ignored 10 calls to stop attacking the UN base. [/li][li]Israel’s death toll stands at 37, with 17 people killed by Hezbollah rockets. The Lebanese government says that more than 380 Lebanese civilians have been …[/li][li]Israel Bombs Hezbollah Headquarters in Lebanon, while Airstrikes Continue in Northern Israel; Lebanon Pleas to the International Community; More Deaths in …[/li][li]Israel Arrests Dozens of Hamas Lawmakers and Ministers as Assault on Gaza Widens.[/li][li]Israel has begun withdrawing its troops in southern Lebanon. … Thousands of Lebanese refugees are streaming back home as Israel slowly proceeds with its …[/li][li]Israel continues it’s offensives in Gaza and Lebanon today, with the Israeli security cabinet prolonging the attacks without a time limit. …[/li][li]Today on another live Friday edition of Flashpoints, we again return to the South of Lebanon, where Israel knowingly bombed a caravan of civilians …[/li][/ul]

LOTS of articles about Israel attacking Lebanon. Very little mention on Hezbollah attacks on Israel.

LOTS of references to civilian Lebanese casualities. Almost nothing about Israeli casualties.

Read between the lines.

98

But that still doesn’t mean that disagreeing with some of Israel’s policies means being an anti-Semite. The government of Israel is made up of human beings, last time I checked, and no human being is perfect. Nor is any government.

Not all Palestinians are terrorists, or members of the PLO, or Hamas, or Hezbollah etc, anymore than all white Southernors are members of the KKK, or all Northern Irish are members of the IRA, or all Italians are in the Mafia.

I believe that Israel is a good thing, being a democracy, and absolutely they have the right to exist. I also think that, like any other government in the world, they should be held accountable when they fuck up.

(Cool name, btw!)

Not that I’m going to go with the comparison of Israel to the Nazis, but if Al Sharpton were acting like a slave owner (in that he was found to own slaves), then hell yeah, the accusation would be fair! IF, let’s say IF, the Israelis were violating human rights, you don’t think it’s fair to call them on that? Maybe a Nazi comparison is over the top, but really, that’s because it’s the most overdone theme in recent history (Godwin anyone?)
As for the Israelis being held to a higher standard than the Palestinians, well, like some have already said, no shit! If they are, as people keep pointing out, the only true free democracy in that region, it goes without saying that they should be expected to be better than the ones around them. You want to be looked to as a beacon of freedom in a land of tyranny? Well, fine, then we’ll expect you to ACT like a democracy. Yes, sadly, sometimes being the good guy brings a hell of a lot more grief than just being an asshole. That’s life.

The Palestinians ain’t goin’ anywhere, either. The debate over, “Well, there never really WAS a Palestine, blah blah blah…” well, hey, they’re here now. That can’t be done away with. Like Israel isn’t going away any time soon, neither are the Palestinians. The Palestinians have a problem that they’re not an organized entity, and most of their spokespeople are either total nutjobs, or only out for number 1. (Yasser Arafat, for example, was both a total nutjob AND he only cared about Yasser Arafat.)

BOTH sides need to shut up, grow up, and sit down like adults and try to fix this thing. None of this bullshit about, “Well, THEY started it!” How old are you? This isn’t pre-school where if you can’t share the Holy Land, nobody gets it!
Oh, and all this bullshit about the left (as if there were some massive, monolithic entity called The Left) being all anti-Israeli because the Palestinians are the underdog and blah blah blah? I’d like to point out that, like it or not, some people on the right are only pro-Israel because of some bullshit Rapture fantasy about Christ returning to the Holy Land where the remaining Jews will be converted and blah blah blah. Does that mean all pro-Israel right-wingers are of this mindset? Of course not. Likewise, not all those on the left who criticize the actions of Israel are somehow pro-Palestinian terrorist sympathizers.

Let’s keep some perspective here, people!

99

I think it’s not just coincidence that liberal support for Israel started to wane, and liberal support for the Palestinians started to grow, after the 1960’s, at the point when Israel was clearly not any longer “willing to live with the will of the International Community”. Namely, when they were attempting to expand their territory to include what had been allotted to the Palestinians.

I realize that there were serious security concerns that influenced that decision, but there’s no denying that according to the terms of the treaty, it was an illegitimate land grab. And it’s been going on for nearly forty years now. Even with the fullest sympathy for Israelis and Jews as the victims of many unprovoked, unjustified murderous assaults in Europe (and the US) and Israel alike, it’s impossible to see them as blameless victims when it comes to the territory issue. The Israeli government is squatting on land to which they have no rightful claim (unless you accept as valid the claims of the religious right wing to possess the whole of the Biblical “Land of Israel” by divine decree, or claims of ownership by military conquest), and denying the Palestinians their right to self-determination.

Well, we like to think so. :slight_smile:

Ya lost me a bit here; it sounds as though you’re saying that Holland is not a European country.

Well, on that we can certainly agree.

100

Exactly! To equate the above position with anti-Semitism and say only supporters of Hamas would feel that way, would be like saying the only people who could support a united Ireland are IRA sympathizers who hate the British. Which is total bullshit.