Since when is anti-Semitism a liberal idea?

The BBQ Pit
121

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Puzzler -this is not GD, and I suck at linking, so no cite. If you read my posts, you would see that I gleaned my view from decades of watching this crap on the news-nightly, as domestic troubles were ignored or not covered and other global issues also neglected. News has since moved on, and via the internet one can get news about anything and anywhere-the objectivity of that news is debatable, but so was the network coverage all those many years. As for higher standards–yes, I expect more than just tepid attempts at peace all the while teaching children to hate.

[/quote]

Well, if all you’re saying is “this is my view, no matter what”, there’s little ground for further discussion. If you’re willing to be open to the other side, we may have an intelligent argument. I think I can back up with cite most of my factual claims. It doesn’t mean I wasn’t wrong in the past – heaven knows I have – but at least I can tell you why I feel or act in certain ways, so that you can negate my assumptions.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

I seem to recall the peace proposal at Camp David as being somewhat disingenous of the Israelis–didn’t it essentialy carve Palestine up into bits? I would have said no to that as well, if I were Palestinian.

[/quote]

No, not quite right.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

While I don’t like how Israel came to be

[/quote]

Oh? And I thought you came to be anti-Israeli only after years of media coverage.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
(I distrust religous fervor, no matter the religion), it is here now, so we must all deal with reality. It makes no sense to move Israel–and no leader or politician or thinker espouses that “solution”.

[/quote]

No leader? Have you asked Ahmenijad (sp?) ?

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

I take the point about the ice in the oven, though–did they think it would be easy? That people who had lived there for centuries would just toddle off and say, OK-here, have my house and my livelihood?

[/quote]

No one said it would be easy. If you want to have peace, hard work is needed. But it’s needed from both sides.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

And for all this talk of Jews having to have this particular stretch of land, one would think that over the centuries it might have sunk in(to all involved-USA, UN etc) that conquering a land is a time consuming and difficult thing. Most nations (America included) did it with superior fire power and knowledge. Israel didn’t have those luxuries. So, maybe, just maybe unrelenting hostility won’t work and other means should be tried? Just sayin’.

[/quote]

Well, Israel does have superior firepower and knowledge – at least as compared to the Palestinians. Only we, unlike other nations (America included) did not engage in genocide.
Unrelenting hostility? No other means tried? Have you actually listened to the news coverage?

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

OK- Israel didn’t bomb the shit out of Lebanon–so, it only bombed the shit out of PART of it.

[/quote]

Yes. The part where Hezbollah was operation from – mainly the parts where rockets were being fired from and the Hezbollah headquarters. You know, if you start a war…

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
A nice distinction and much comfort, I am sure to all those Lebanese without homes and relatives now. No doubt they are right now singing Israel’s praises for its attempt to rid their own country of its own people.

[/quote]

No. They are cheering Hezbollah who helped them free themselves from the vicious Israelis. :dubious:

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
No, I don’t mean that the Lebanese all support Hezbellah etc. All I can say is that if a foreign nation came to my neighborhood, bombed my house and killed my family, all because it was trying (not even succeeding, mind you, just trying) to kill some criminals, I would not think too kindly of that country. Christ, it’s not quantum theory! It’s simply human nature.

[/quote]

So, if (god forbid) a criminal will take you hostage, and the police, while arresting him, will crash through your door and destroy your sofa, you’ll blame it on the police?
I mean, you can look at it in two ways. Either the Hezbollah were an official Lebanese branch, in which case Lebanon started a war with Israel, or the Hezbollah were a terrorist group operating from within S. Lebanon, without the central government doing anything about it. Either case, the blame is with the Lebanese government.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Nowhere have I said that the Palestinians are in the right or innocent or the victims. I see the victim-Israel card being played in the stories told on the news–somehow it is always innocent Israelis who are blown up on buses, never innocent Palestinians thrown in jail or shot in the streets. Again, it ain’t rocket science–you are both guilty as hell of violence and hatred. Whatcha gonna do bout it?

[/quote]

Well, as the Juries seems to have adjourned and found me guilty, guess nothing much I can do.
Do I have a right to appeal?

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

It looks like bomb more and get even MORE aggressive-yeah, that’ll work. That is sure to engender good relations in the region. Lord knows some of the countries are bass-ackward when it comes to human rights–so who is in a position to be a model of just and humane treatment for not just its citizens, but to its criminals and yes, even the terrorists? Guess it’s not Israel. Maybe Kuwait–I’ll take a constitutional monarchy over an insanely aggressive and paranoid democracy any day.

[/quote]

Wow. You’d rather live in a country were human rights are violated, woman do not have the right to vote or seek election to the National Assembly, police and members of the security forces abuse detainees during interrogation, the judiciary is subject to government influence, a pattern of bias against foreign residents exists, journalism is self-censored, the government limits freedom of religion and movement. And much, much more than in Israel. That’s your “model of just and humane treatment” ?
Good luck to you.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

I also think that you need to get past the party platform stuff. Much better instead of trying to ram words back down someone’s throat is to find common ground (and no, I don’t think Israel has even tried this), work on negotiating trade agreements that benefit both nations and stop teaching kids to hate non-Jews, as in Muslims and Palestinians.

[/quote]

I (or anybody else) can’t control what some people are doing privately. Official textbooks and teaching agenda calls for peace and not for hatred. There is an official education toward democracy and freedom. You should really try to get your facts straight.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

On the Palestinian side, I think that they need to stop teaching their kids to hate Jews, work on trade agreements as well, and crack down on the rogue elements that roam the region. They should ask the UN for help in this. They also need to accept the fact that Israel is not going away.

[/quote]

Now, Palestinian official textbooks are a different story all together. Those are likely to hinder peace for the next generation as well.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Perhaps I am naive and stupid. I don’t know. But you will not get peace until there is justice–and a justice perceived as fair by both sides. Yeah-the “Arabs” may hate you-but you are still there, after 50 years. They will deal with you-you need to figure out how. They need to grow up and enter the 20th century (I am not asking them to enter the 21st yet).

[/quote]

I don’t think you’re stupid, but maybe misinformed.
I do have to object to your last sentence. I do not consider the Arabs or Muslims “kids” that need top “grow up”. They have all the options and capability to “enter the 21st century” that you, I, or anyone else have. They are not different species, you know. Try to think of them (and us, while you’re at it) as regular human beings. May help you see things more clearly.

122

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Fuck it. This whole thing makes me want to turn isolationist.

I know this: it takes two sides to make a war or a peace. It takes real work, with real concessions on both sides to come to accord. I don’t see that happening. And I hold Israel to a higher standard, since it has more resources, and is supposed to be democratic. As distasteful as it is to look at it–there are reasons for terror as a bargaining ploy. It works, sadly and often enough. Killing innocent people while trying to weed out the terrorist cells is not working, to my eyes. Bombing the shit out of Lebanon for the sake of 2 Israeli soldiers is overkill and ill-judged. And then I read that Israelis don’t think the attacks were harsh enough. :smack:

For every “good will” gesture reported in the news re Israel, there are just as many provocations on Israel’s part. And no, I don’t have a cite. I have been hearing about this shit on the news since I became of aware of news–circa 1978 for me(age 16). I don’t want to know the extreme actions on either side’s part–what a pissing contest to win(!).

Unless you want me to believe that Palestinians are all evil and want Death to Israel (which is how it is characterized–like all this suicide bombing happens in a fucking vacuum), Israel must be the “bigger man”. Sharon was on to a good thing when he made those setters relocate–and some of them refused. And then they are astonished when this is disapproved of? That’s amazing to me.
What I, and I think most people, want to see is REAL progress towards accord and for Israel to stop playing the victim nonsense-it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. There are no people (except the crazies) who want Israel to disappear. Yep-go ahead, quote me the party platforms that deny Israel statehood. It doesn’t matter. The Republicans here want to ban abortion-talk to the GOP and see how many really want that. (no I am not equating Israel with abortion-the point is that party platforms say alot of shit that isn’t carried thru or even aspired to in RL. Do I approve of such sentiments? Absolutely not). But Israel needs to work with what is–not what it thinks it deserves.

What I continue to be amazed at is the atrocious treatment towards Palestinians from Israel, all the while Israelis cry, “but we are the victims here!” Bullshit-they collude in their own victimhood. But then, the Holocaust is dragged into it, and that’s a real dialogue stopper. I’m tired of that being used as a stonewalling technique. Christ, I can see someone here accusing me of being a Holocaust denier based on that remark. I’m not.

For two cents, I’d wash my hands of the whole thing.
Does that make me anti-Semitic? NO-it makes me fed to my backteeth with this whole dysfunctionality. I am sick of hearing about it on the news; I am sick of having it take center stage when we have domestic problems and OTHER global problems to deal with. Grow the fuck up, Israel and come to the table-and STAY at the table. The exact same thing could and should be said to the Palestinians.

I still can’t get over their whole “well, we live here now and fuck you, Palestinians-get out” stance post WW2. And they wonder why there are problems. They MADE a culture of hate from those “temporary” refugee camps–and you reap what you sow. Shut up and deal, please. And don’t trot out the old, “but we don’t deal with terror”–terror is what you live with right now. Perhaps it is time to deal with it in a different way. I by no means have all or any answers–but bombing the shit out of Lebanon doesn’t make you any new friends or build trust in the region. Way to go; Israel does it again–ensure that another generation grows up hating it.

Israel is a democratic state in a very troubled region of the world. I realize they can’t force the arab nations to accept them, and if I, a Midwestern housewife, realize it, surely some of those brains in the Israeli government could realize it too.

IOW, what Israel is doing is NOT working to bring about accord. Yep-same applies to Palestine. Jesus, with Arafat gone, you’d think there be a chance here for something.
Sorry for the rant. In no way do I hate Jewish people. I no more want to see any of them die than I want to see a Palestinian die.
But I refuse to say that anything goes when it comes to solving this conundrum. There has to be a better way–and IMO, it is up to Israel to find it.
[/QUOTE]

You took the words out of my mouth.

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[QUOTE=Puzzler]
Where the fuck did you see me say anything about Israel being there for ever, the Jews having a superior claim to the land, or anything even hinting at it? Hmm? Where?
[/quote]
Seems I confused you with Noone Special, who stopped spouting the same type of hatred in this thread about the time you started. My apologies.

You’re defining preparations to prevent invasion as “aggression”, huh? You used the same “logic” for defending the Iraq invasion that you no longer talk about.

124

[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Seems I confused you with Noone Special, who stopped spouting the same type of hatred in this thread about the time you started. My apologies.
[/QUOTE]
Please cite where I “spouted hatred” (for anyone or anything), or retract.

125

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I don’t see growing racism re Jews. I do see growing anger and frustration at Israel.
[/QUOTE]

Wow, you’re incredibly ignorant. To link to just one cite: http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/042904KRN_Berlin.shtml

To me, this kind of willful ignorance is highly problematic. I’ve seen too many liberals who refuse to call anything anti-Semitic if it can be somehow linked back to Israel.

And you still haven’t apologized to me for your ridiculous comments on the first page. Fucking ignoramus.

126

[QUOTE=Puzzler]

Oh? And I thought you came to be anti-Israeli only after years of media coverage.
[/QUOTE]

You fucking fuck. If you are a “liberal” Israeli-there is no hope for your country. READ MY DAMNED POSTS-you biased, prejudiced fuck. No-I don’t like how Israel came to be: I DON’T LIKE ARBITRARY LINES DRAWN IN THE SAND TO MAKE COUNTRIES–any countries, like, oh-Iraq.

You immediately-immediately!-went to the Anti-Semitic. Get the fuck over your damned self.

I don’t have time to even read the rest of this garbage–I have to go to work. And take of lots of people whose lifestyles and political POV and religions do not jive with mine. SOME of us can do that–and even LIVE WITH OTHERS WHO DON’T APPROVE OF OR LIKE US AS WELL.

And where-WHERE-has anyone not said this? Where-WHERE-has anyone said that Palestine gets a free pass? We just haven’t joined in the Israeli pity party and roundly condemned those evil Palestinians. Suck it up.

You don’t want to listen to reason or criticism. In your eyes, Israel does no wrong. YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG, SIR–AND YOUR CHILDREN WILL PAY FOR YOUR OBTUSENSS FOR GENERATIONS. As will the Palestinian children(hate to belabor an obvious point, but apparently Israeli schools aren’t quite up to par).

God, you are stupid. It was sarcasm. Saints preserve us, please. Oy and veh as well.

Which is why longstanding prejudice is allowed to flourish (again, for the mentally challenged), for both sides. I see Israeli children NOT keeping the 10 commandments, but eager to learn soldiering and go kill their “enemy”. I see Palestinian kids already fighting. You must be very proud.

No-you’re not a fuck. You’re a dick. You really don’t have a sense of humor, do you? 1. it was an attempt at levity in a very heavy thread, and 2. dontcha think that maybe attempting too much cultural change too quickly on any one society might, just might mind you, lead to a knee jerk response of, oh, I dunno-fundamentalism, as that culture sees its way of life pushed aside?

I do see the Palestinians as people. Can you say that the majority of your country do? Oh, fuck what the textbooks say. Honestly-what an argument! Can you say that your leaders truly want peace? Can you say that bombing civilians is just plain wrong, no matter the motive? Can you say I am ashamed of my government for doing so and will work to change things for the better? I can and do about my country.

I don’t care if you think I’m stupid. I am not seeing any Jew haters under any and all beds-unlike you. Have at your approach to life and politics–lemme know how that’s working for ya, in say, another 20 years.

Oh, and I am most emphatically NOT anti-israeli. :rolleyes:

127

[QUOTE=Puzzler]

Oh? And I thought you came to be anti-Israeli only after years of media coverage.
[/QUOTE]

You fucking fuck. If you are a “liberal” Israeli-there is no hope for your country. READ MY DAMNED POSTS-you biased, prejudiced fuck. No-I don’t like how Israel came to be: I DON’T LIKE ARBITRARY LINES DRAWN IN THE SAND TO MAKE COUNTRIES–any countries, like, oh-Iraq.

You immediately-immediately!-went to the Anti-Semitic. Get the fuck over your damned self.

I don’t have time to even read the rest of this garbage–I have to go to work. And take of lots of people whose lifestyles and political POV and religions do not jive with mine. SOME of us can do that–and even LIVE WITH OTHERS WHO DON’T APPROVE OF OR LIKE US AS WELL.

And where-WHERE-has anyone not said this? Where-WHERE-has anyone said that Palestine gets a free pass? We just haven’t joined in the Israeli pity party and roundly condemned those evil Palestinians. Suck it up.

You don’t want to listen to reason or criticism. In your eyes, Israel does no wrong. YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG, SIR–AND YOUR CHILDREN WILL PAY FOR YOUR OBTUSENSS FOR GENERATIONS. As will the Palestinian children(hate to belabor an obvious point, but apparently Israeli schools aren’t quite up to par).

God, you are stupid. It was sarcasm. Saints preserve us, please. Oy and veh as well.

Which is why longstanding prejudice is allowed to flourish (again, for the mentally challenged), for both sides. I see Israeli children NOT keeping the 10 commandments, but eager to learn soldiering and go kill their “enemy”. I see Palestinian kids already fighting. You must be very proud.

No-you’re not a fuck. You’re a dick. You really don’t have a sense of humor, do you? 1. it was an attempt at levity in a very heavy thread, and 2. dontcha think that maybe attempting too much cultural change too quickly on any one society might, just might mind you, lead to a knee jerk response of, oh, I dunno-fundamentalism, as that culture sees its way of life pushed aside?

I do see the Palestinians as people. Can you say that the majority of your country do? Oh, fuck what the textbooks say. Honestly-what an argument! Can you say that your leaders truly want peace? Can you say that bombing civilians is just plain wrong, no matter the motive? Can you say I am ashamed of my government for doing so and will work to change things for the better? I can and do about my country.

I don’t care if you think I’m stupid. I am not seeing any Jew haters under any and all beds-unlike you. Have at your approach to life and politics–lemme know how that’s working for ya, in say, another 20 years.

128

[QUOTE=Puzzler]

Oh? And I thought you came to be anti-Israeli only after years of media coverage.
[/QUOTE]

You fucking fuck. If you are a “liberal” Israeli-there is no hope for your country. READ MY DAMNED POSTS-you biased, prejudiced fuck. No-I don’t like how Israel came to be: I DON’T LIKE ARBITRARY LINES DRAWN IN THE SAND TO MAKE COUNTRIES–any countries, like, oh-Iraq.

You immediately-immediately!-went to the Anti-Semitic. Get the fuck over your damned self.

I don’t have time to even read the rest of this garbage–I have to go to work. And take of lots of people whose lifestyles and political POV and religions do not jive with mine. SOME of us can do that–and even LIVE WITH OTHERS WHO DON’T APPROVE OF OR LIKE US AS WELL.

And where-WHERE-has anyone not said this? Where-WHERE-has anyone said that Palestine gets a free pass? We just haven’t joined in the Israeli pity party and roundly condemned those evil Palestinians. Suck it up.

You don’t want to listen to reason or criticism. In your eyes, Israel does no wrong. YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG, SIR–AND YOUR CHILDREN WILL PAY FOR YOUR OBTUSENSS FOR GENERATIONS. As will the Palestinian children(hate to belabor an obvious point, but apparently Israeli schools aren’t quite up to par).

God, you are stupid. It was sarcasm. Saints preserve us, please. Oy and veh as well.

Which is why longstanding prejudice is allowed to flourish (again, for the mentally challenged), for both sides. I see Israeli children NOT keeping the 10 commandments, but eager to learn soldiering and go kill their “enemy”. I see Palestinian kids already fighting. You must be very proud.

No-you’re not a fuck. You’re a dick. You really don’t have a sense of humor, do you? 1. it was an attempt at levity in a very heavy thread, and 2. dontcha think that maybe attempting too much cultural change too quickly on any one society might, just might mind you, lead to a knee jerk response of, oh, I dunno-fundamentalism, as that culture sees its way of life pushed aside?

I do see the Palestinians as people. Can you say that the majority of your country do? Oh, fuck what the textbooks say. Honestly-what an argument! Can you say that your leaders truly want peace? Can you say that bombing civilians is just plain wrong, no matter the motive? Can you say I am ashamed of my government for doing so and will work to change things for the better? I can and do about my country.

I don’t care if you think I’m stupid. I am not seeing any Jew haters under any and all beds-unlike you. Have at your approach to life and politics–lemme know how that’s working for ya, in say, another 20 years.

129

A post so stupid she had to make it thrice.

130

In a Danish newspaper yesterday the German/Polish (liberal) commentator Henryk M. Broder, expressed his view that Europeans, unknown to themselves, secretly wish for a second holocaust so their guilt from the first holocaust could be washed clean or at least forgotten in the horrors of the second.

I find this to be needlessly conspiratory. On the other hand it is clear that this sort of antisemitism which was in the 70’s and 80’s only a fringe element on the extreme left, has today become a much more mainstream liberal view. Just a few weeks ago we had liberals groups all over Europe march side by side with racist antisemitic genocidal groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. At the same occasion the widely read Norwegian writer Jostein Gaarder, went on a very suspect anti-Israel/Judaism binge. Norway was also home to some fairly suspect things happening at a Krystalnach commemoration a few years back, where Jews were reportable barred from participating or at least sport Jewish symbols like the David Star. In any case Krystalnach commemorations in both Norway and Denmark have long been turned into protests against Israel and the Palestinian situation and Jewish symbols have also been banned in the Norwegian parliament on account of them being deemed hate symbols. In Sweden the influential writer Jan Guillou has for years been going on and on and on with his Israel-phobia and his wet dreams that Israel will soon be annihilated. And this is a person who is widely published and a fixed columnist in several Swedish liberal newspapers as well as often guest in television. In Denmark several labor unions have denounced Israel. At the first of May demonstration in Copenhagen last year, I was not only met with innumerable t-shirts with the ubiquitous “David-star” = swastika and Palestinian flags, happening to listen to a bit of a speech made by a representative of the largest labor union in Denmark made on a platform flaked by large Palestinian flags, I heard him shout how if anyone didn’t feel like they did towards Israel, they weren’t at welcome. They should piss off then. And seeing as how it’s impossible to get a job in many sectors without being a member of the correct labor union, this amounts to a berufsverbot for Jews. In Britain we have academic groups trying to boycott Israel. Strangely they feel no similar need to boycott all the world’s totalitarian theocracies and dictatorships. This onesided condemnation of Israel to the exclusion of all kinds of other – and much much worse – criminal regimes, let alone the other part of the Israel / Arab conflict, speaks to me of an unhealthy and suspect preoccupation with Israel’s fault.

131

** eleanorigby**, you wouldn’t mind if I answered you just once, right?

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
You fucking fuck. If you are a “liberal” Israeli-there is no hope for your country. READ MY DAMNED POSTS-you biased, prejudiced fuck. No-I don’t like how Israel came to be: I DON’T LIKE ARBITRARY LINES DRAWN IN THE SAND TO MAKE COUNTRIES–any countries, like, oh-Iraq.

[/quote]

Shouting and name-calling aside, got any better ideas to draw national borders?

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

You immediately-immediately!-went to the Anti-Semitic. Get the fuck over your damned self.

[/quote]

Rea-he-lly? I have? And immediately, even? Where did I do that? Do tell.
Actually, scrolling upthread, I seem to have repeatedly avoided the anti-Semitic issue.
I did call you an anti-Israeli. So, is anti-Israel and anti-Semitism identical now? I’m confused.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

I don’t have time to even read the rest of this garbage–I have to go to work. And take of lots of people whose lifestyles and political POV and religions do not jive with mine. SOME of us can do that–and even LIVE WITH OTHERS WHO DON’T APPROVE OF OR LIKE US AS WELL.

[/quote]

Yes, I can see how well you cope with people not agreeing with you.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

And where-WHERE-has anyone not said this? Where-WHERE-has anyone said that Palestine gets a free pass? We just haven’t joined in the Israeli pity party and roundly condemned those evil Palestinians. Suck it up.

[/quote]

Well, you said my ancestors thought it would be “easy” to live there. I said nobody thinks that. What’s your point?

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

You don’t want to listen to reason or criticism. In your eyes, Israel does no wrong. YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG, SIR–AND YOUR CHILDREN WILL PAY FOR YOUR OBTUSENSS FOR GENERATIONS. As will the Palestinian children(hate to belabor an obvious point, but apparently Israeli schools aren’t quite up to par).

[/quote]

Oh, I don’t mind listen to reason. Except I don’t see it here.
BTW, I criticize quite a lot of the Israeli actions. I never said Israel does no wrong. Find another strawman to fight.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

God, you are stupid. It was sarcasm. Saints preserve us, please. Oy and veh as well.

[/quote]

Riiiiiight. I’m so stupid, I couldn’t even read your mind through the internet. How stupid can I be?

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Which is why longstanding prejudice is allowed to flourish (again, for the mentally challenged), for both sides. I see Israeli children NOT keeping the 10 commandments, but eager to learn soldiering and go kill their “enemy”. I see Palestinian kids already fighting. You must be very proud.

[/quote]

Good. Both Arabs and the Israeli are mentally challenged. Aha.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

No-you’re not a fuck. You’re a dick. You really don’t have a sense of humor, do you? 1. it was an attempt at levity in a very heavy thread, and 2. dontcha think that maybe attempting too much cultural change too quickly on any one society might, just might mind you, lead to a knee jerk response of, oh, I dunno-fundamentalism, as that culture sees its way of life pushed aside?

[/quote]

So, I’m a dick and a fuck. Not necessarily a bad combination.
As for sense of humor… Calling people to “grow up” and “enter the 20th century because the 21st is too advanced for them” is not what I call a sense of humor. I can call it a bunch of other names, though.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

I do see the Palestinians as people. Can you say that the majority of your country do?

[/quote]

Yes, I can.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Oh, fuck what the textbooks say. Honestly-what an argument!

[/quote]

Of course. Who gives a fuck about what textbooks say when discussing the education of the children? :dubious:

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Can you say that your leaders truly want peace?

[/quote]

Tell me which leader you have in mind, and I’ll tell you.
I think most do, but some don’t.
I think those in government now do want peace. That’s why the agenda (up until the attacks by the Palestinians and Hezbollah) why evacuation of the west bank (at least partially). FWIW, some members of the coalition criticized it as too little. The party I vote for didn’t enter the coalition because it felt more concessions are due.
But, naturally, I’m just a stupid, fucked-up fuck dick mentally challenged Israeli. So why listen to me? You know better already (let me guess: all Israeli leaders are crazed warmongers).

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Can you say that bombing civilians is just plain wrong, no matter the motive? Can you say I am ashamed of my government for doing so and will work to change things for the better? I can and do about my country.

[/quote]

Bombing civilians, when knowing they are civilians, or when knowing they will be hurt while other options exist is wrong. I have demonstrated against actions I thought were not necessary.
No matter the motive? No.
Let me tell you: if, while walking with my family and kids, someone grabs an innocent bystander, then starts shooting at me, hitting my kids – I will pull out my gun and shoot back, even if it means the hostage would be hurt, rather than stand back and watch my family being slaughtered. My kids’ lives are worth more to me.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

I don’t care if you think I’m stupid. I am not seeing any Jew haters under any and all beds-unlike you. Have at your approach to life and politics–lemme know how that’s working for ya, in say, another 20 years.

[/quote]

That line again? Pffff.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

Oh, and I am most emphatically NOT anti-israeli. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

Of-course you’re not.

132

[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Seems I confused you with Noone Special, who stopped spouting the same type of hatred in this thread about the time you started. My apologies.

[/quote]

Apology accepted regarding mix-up. I, in turn, apologize for my resort to name calling. I was furious thinking you repeatedly accused me for something you knew I did not do.

Now, you seem to be saying I started “spouting hatred” right after Noone Special stopped. I saw he asked you to show him where he did so, and I complement it by asking you to do the same for me. What posts of mine do you consider hatful?

[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]

You’re defining preparations to prevent invasion as “aggression”, huh? You used the same “logic” for defending the Iraq invasion that you no longer talk about.
[/QUOTE]

I think you’re being over-simplistic, and I suspect you do it on purpose.
The situation before the 6-days war was very complicated. Both sides made mistakes, and, from reading about it, I get a feeling both sides lost control of the situation at a certain time.
But stating the Arab side was only preparing for invasion? Do you include the closing of the Straits of Tiran in that? And how about President Nasser’s quote (from before the war) " Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."? Also defensive?

133

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
But that still doesn’t mean that disagreeing with some of Israel’s policies means being an anti-Semite. The government of Israel is made up of human beings, last time I checked, and no human being is perfect. Nor is any government.

Not all Palestinians are terrorists, or members of the PLO, or Hamas, or Hezbollah etc, anymore than all white Southernors are members of the KKK, or all Northern Irish are members of the IRA, or all Italians are in the Mafia.

I believe that Israel is a good thing, being a democracy, and absolutely they have the right to exist. I also think that, like any other government in the world, they should be held accountable when they fuck up.
[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree with you. I am also critical of some of Israel’s policies. Like the US, it’s a young country, and its actions are going to be closely scrutinized. Still, I’ve noticed that those on the left seem to be far more critical of Israel’s actions than those of the terrorosts, “freedom fighers”, or whatever you want to call them. Consider the Pacifica Radio coverage; they have a strong anti-Israel bias, but I credit them for not associating Israel’s actions with Judaism in general.

I guess I can see criticism of Isreal in the same respect as dislike of rap music; just because someone is not a fan of rap does not mean they’re racist. Still, I see some anti-Semitic overtones in criticism of Israel; Israeli lives are worth less than Arab lives, the Holocaust is just a weak excuse for Israel to react as aggressively as it does, the “Israel lobby” has control over the US Congress and media, and so on.

134

[QUOTE=Puzzler]
I do have to object to your last sentence. I do not consider the Arabs or Muslims “kids” that need top “grow up”. They have all the options and capability to “enter the 21st century” that you, I, or anyone else have. They are not different species, you know. Try to think of them (and us, while you’re at it) as regular human beings. May help you see things more clearly.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen the footage of women buried up to their waist, covered in shrouds, and hit with stones until they die for adultery. I’ve seen the bloodstains swelling through the shrouds. The people who think that is the right thing to do are not like me. and they DO have some growing up to do.

135

[QUOTE=carnivorousplant]
As I have remarked far too often, when they try to put us in the ovens again, we have a place to go.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, in the dawning of a mass-available nuclear/bioweapon age, all hanging out in the same tiny plot of land is definately a smart move.

136

Well, I am on the left (center-left). I am not remotely anti-Semitic, but I do have a problem with Israel. Or, more accurately, I have a creeping sense that concern for Israel is driving America’s foreign policy.

I began to get this sense after we took out Saddam. (Perhaps it is coincidental that he was an active enemy of Israel. Certainly, the US had cause enough to worry about Saddam without concern for Israel entering into the picture.)

But then just after the fall of Saddam’s regime I started hearing triumphant voices on the right saying Syria would be next. WTF? What had Syria done to the US at that point? Why should the US make war on Syria? Syria seemed to me more an enemy of Israel than an enemy of the US per se.

And now we are getting rumblings about war on Iran. Again, WTF? Iran may be sponsoring terrorism against Israel (for which they deserve condemnation), but has Iran taken any action against the US in the past 20 years?

All of this begins to make me feel as if we are fighting proxy wars for Israel. It seems almost as if Israel is regarded as the 51st state, which we must protect and defend as if it were our own territory. If that is the mindset, I think it is wrong.

It bothers me that I cannot voice this concern without being accused, directly or by innuendo, of anti-Semitism. Use of such innuendo to squelch debate seems like modern McCarthyism. Where once dissenters were accused of being communists, now they are accused of being anti-Semites.

You can oppose Israel, and oppose its apparent influence on US policy, without being anti-Semitic.

I fully understand this. I understand the value and importance of Israel to the Jewish diaspora. I am all for Israel’s continued existence. More power to them, I say.

However, I question why the US in particular should be committed to protect and defend Israel at the cost of its own treasure and the lives of our sons and daughters. Why should that be our job? Why are US interests being conflated with those of Israel?

137

[QUOTE=elmwood]
Still, I see some anti-Semitic overtones in criticism of Israel…the “Israel lobby” has control over the US Congress and media, and so on.
[/QUOTE]

This I don’t understand. Do you deny that a pro-Israel lobby exists? And if it does exist, why would it be necessarily anti-Semitic to question whether the lobby exerts too much influence over US foreign policy?

138

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]

I don’t sympathize with terrorism. I deplore it. It is wrong on all levels. But it is a human response --and we need to understand the reasons for it and the root causes of it-in order to eradicate it as best as can be done.
[/QUOTE]

Y’know, this is just typical. And what’s behind it? Racism, of a particular sort. Racism that denies humanity and agency to Arabs or Palestinians. In Elanorigby’s world, Israelis, Americans and Europeans act, they plan, they think, they are responsible for their actions. But Arabs and Muslims react, they are acted upon, their actions are the responsibility of some American or Israeli or European.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

139

“Favoring” in this case is just a euphemism for “legally discriminating”. I don’t claim, and didn’t claim, that Israel’s other laws involve religious/ethnic discrimination, but there’s no denying that its immigration law does.

And as for your claim that Israeli settlements outside the Gaza Strip were not expanded under Sharon—don’t you remember that that was actually a point of contention between Sharon and Bush last year?

Sharon even made a point of this expansion policy to placate the Israeli right that was upset by the Gaza pullout:

Sorry, but I don’t think there’s any possible doubt that expanding at least parts of the settlements is official Israeli policy, and it continued to be so under Sharon.

Perhaps because they don’t trust Israel to leave the West Bank? I mean, given Sharon’s explicit promise of continued expansion of Israeli settlements there?

I understand why Israel feels distrustful towards the Palestinians, of course, and with quite some reason. But I don’t understand why so many Israel supporters seem to think that it would be reasonable for Palestinians to trust Israel. If I were a Palestinian who was even remotely aware of events like the shooting of Palestinian schoolchildren by Israeli soldiers and settlers, and Israeli expropriation of so-called “absentee” lands owned by Palestinian refugees, and Israel’s stated goals of permanent expansion of settlements into territory that was internationally designated part of Palestine, why would I feel any confidence that Israel had any interest in being honest and fair towards Palestinians? Why would a “reasonable Palestinian” trust the Israeli government, any more than the Israelis trust Palestinian organizations?

140

Imagine the headlines if Israel screwed up and killed a Canadian soldier.