Spinoff from the Bernie Sanders thread. Starting around post #200, Terr decided to start arguing that anti-Semitism is widespread on the left, and pointed to an article about the Boycott/Divestment/Sanctions movement against Israel as evidence (http://www.wiesenthal.com/atf/cf/{54d385e6-f1b9-4e9f-8e94-890c3e6dd277}/REPORT_313.PDF). tomndebb thought this was a tangent too far for the Bernie thread, so: a spinoff.
Now then, Terr: your move. Is it your opinion that any criticism of the Israeli state is inherently anti-Semitic?
Anyone who does not recognize the rising thread of antisemitism within academic liberal circles is just fooling themselves.
An increasing number, now to a majority of college students in the college environment have personally witnessed or experienced anti-semitic actions.
Some in liberal circles call for divesture and condemnation of what they see as wrong where ever they see it and include Israel’s existence or actions as part of that list. I may disagree with them (or not on specific issues) but I certainly do not see that as “inherently anti-Semitic.” The argument that such beliefs are equal to anti-Semitism is a straw man.
Some however single out Israel. They hold it to a completely different standard than anyone else. Often they include references not to a “pro-Israel lobby” but to “the Jewish Lobby” and resort to intimations about the real loyalty of Jews.
One cannot help but wonder what motivates that.
“Wide-spread”? I do not know. But a belief that liberal is incompatible with anti-Semitic is mistaken. And a belief that none of the Israel hatred in some liberal circles is informed by old school anti-Semitism … and used to justify it as well … is simply delusional.
I’d need a little more than an article from the Daily Beast to consider that case closed. Even if the number of Jewish students reporting being exposed to incidences of anti-Semitism were increasing, it doesn’t mean that actual incidents are (it could be students being more outspoken, more aware, or simply a broadening scope of what anti-Semitism means to the average Jewish student), nor does it mean that those perpetrating such incidents are ‘leftists.’
It seems to be what Terr was specifically claiming in the other thread. If he was merely being inarticulate, he can clarify. But I don’t think it’s accurate to characterize this as a strawman.
Actually, as belief systems, they are incompatible. However, humans’ ability to simultaneously believe contradictory ideas is well-documented.
Did you read the previous thread? Terr is trying to argue that anti-Semitism is running amok among the left. He pointed to the Wisenthal center article as evidence. I said
to which Terr replied
Saying “Talked about a mind slammed shut” in response to my claim that the equation of all attempts to divest in Israeli companies with anti-Semitism hurts ones credibility seems to suggest that he thinks that BDS == anti-Semitism is a credible claim to make. If not, he’s welcome to clarify.
As is often the case with these things, some BDS supporters are motivated by anti-semitism and some aren’t. Even among those who only target Israel, that is not prima facie evidence of anti-semitism. For one, lots of people only focus their efforts on wrongdoing in one place. They are not generally held to be hypocrites because they focus their efforts on Myanmar and not Eritrea. And for another, lots of BDS supporters have clear rationales for targeting Israel–chiefly the unique relationship between the US and Israel, and the fact of Israel’s more or less functioning democracy.
I would be curious to know whether the people who accept the self-reported rate of anti-semitism also accept the self-reported rate of racism or sexism.
With due respect, you are a Moderator on a Message Board who has perhaps met a few members of said board and probably none of them are contributing to this thread (I am ready to be proven wrong). That is what we can be sure of.
That said, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume (as I do with almost any poster on any board I frequent) that you are what you say you are. Given that, I would like to hear some collaborating evidence for your 100% experience.
Yes, this is the critical part of the argument, and it doesn’t surprise me that Do Not Taunt scissored up your post and refused to reply to this paragraph. If one were to list the worst human rights abusers on Earth, Israel probably wouldn’t be in the top 50. But the Boycott & Divest loony tunes only boycott Israel. Why aren’t they calling for divestment from China? Or Indonesia? Or Saudi Arabia? The thuddingly obvious answer is that they don’t care about human rights, and are instead motivated by anti-semitism.
Earlier this year, left-wing students at UC Davis rammed through a standard call for an academic boycott and divestment from Israel. And then somebody spray painted swastikas on the Jewish fraternity house. I wonder who could possibly have done that?
(It goes without saying that mainstream media, who were at this time whipping themselves into a frenzy about some dumb frat boys doing a racist chant on a bus, chose to largely ignore this actual on-campus hate crime.)
My posting history has always been as a jewish liberal and I’ve discussed my academic background a lot before this point. Is that the part you’re wondering about?
Or is it my experience of other liberals exhibiting the types of behaviors DSeid talked about?
I’ll be happy to clarify, within the bounds of being as anonymous as I can.
I didn’t respond before because it was in this part of his post where DSeid was going on about what ‘some’ do and think and blah, blah. I’m not going to get into defending every single person who supports the BDS movement. Rather, my point is that the movement as a whole is not anti-Semitic, because it targets actions of the state of Israel, not Jews as a whole.
As for the ‘singling out Israel’ argument - it’s garbage. Even if I accepted at face value that there would be more benefit to targeting Indonesia with a BDS movement, it doesn’t follow that movements targeting at other problems need to disband until Indonesia fixes whatever Indonesia has to do. “But there are other worse things in the world” is just not an argument.
But that said, there are rational reasons for a primarily US organization to aim BDS at Israel: they’re actively pursuing a policy of occupation against Palestine, they have a generally close relationship with the US, they’re democratic (at least for Israeli citizens. Occupied Palestinians not included.) Leaders of BDS may very reasonably believe that they have more leverage against Israel than they would against Indonesia. They may also believe that Israeli occupation of Palestine foments hatred against the United States, and endangers US citizens, and therefore it is important to be seen doing something to pressure Israel towards a different policy. None of those beliefs require anti-Semitism.
Not sure who you list in the “Boycott & Divest loony tunes” group, but since my church has been attacked for being anti-semitic for our boycott - I thought would help reduce some ignorance in our case:
So it is possible to believe in a boycott, and not just focus on Israel.
On the other hand…
Any anti-Israel activity tends to attract some bigots. That makes the entire conversation very difficult, and you can find yourself having to check your so-called allies regularly.
No, I am not asking you to clarify or somehow prove you are who you say you are; I respect your confidentiality. I’m just somewhat of a St. Thomas doubter crossed with a Missouri mule; I have to see it or have conclusive evidence before I fully trust that someone, even a long-time poster here who is trusted and respected enough to be a Moderator, is what they say they are.
But since it is quite impossible to meet ever single human on the planet (it is a worthy goal, however), my default is that people are telling me the truth when they self-identify. And I am about 99% sure you are a Jewish, liberal academic.
But only 99%. I reserve the 1% for the Thomas/Mule portion of my head.
That said, I guess what got me was the one-sentence answer: It sounded a whole lot like an Argument from Authority to me, with nothing in terms of evidence or even a story/ancedote to back it up. And Arguments from Authority are something that makes me…grumpy…
And for the record, I am an overweight, balding, Government bureaucrat, a white liberal Democrat Agnostic living in Alabama. All of which is true, but like your credentials, you and others must take mine in faith.
I would not say that criticism of Israel is inherently anti-Semitic. It is possible to make legitimate criticisms of the country or even of Jews in particular, and even some of the illegitimate criticisms are founded in an idiotic desire to defend the underdog even when the underdog is using evil means to advance an evil cause and not racial or religious bigotry.
Or they think that Israel might actually be responsive to boycotts and similar pressures, in a way that China, or Indonesia, or Saudi Arabia are not.
Almost certainly, an anti-Semite. Do you have any evidence that the person or persons who committed the vandalism represent a significant portion of the people calling for divestment?
Interesting that you can’t seem to discuss one act of abhorrent racism without downplaying an unrelated act of abhorrent racism.
Of course, your claim that the incident was largely ignored is, as is typical of your claims about the media, wildly inaccurate.
It wasn’t an argument of authority but a post in support of DSeid’s well expressed thoughts. I was giving my background to give credibility to my opinion, but that’s different than being an authority. It is my experience and while that may or may not give me authority it does give my experience credibility.
Dseid’s well expressed thoughts could easily have applied to South Africa back during Apartheid. With all the brutal regimes in the world with a minority ruling class why was South Africa singled out? One must wonder about the real motivations …
So Isael is equivalent to apartheid era South Africa. Gotcha.
So, no. They could not easily apply and the fact people think so is exactly the point of how distorted the representation of Israel by the U.S. media has become. I had friends in family in Israel during the Gaza war and what was being reported here vs what was actually happening there, in terms of facts and focus, was night and day.