Hey, same link!
BTW, jjimm, do you forget that elusive 3rd county in Ulster that’s not in NI? Besides Monaghan and Donegal?
Cavan.
(Shhhh…you’ll give it away.)
Doh!
Sorry, I can never remember Cavan. I always get it mixed up with Navan.
Use this simple mnemonic device -
Navan is a palindromic hole,
So is Cavac
Hey - it works for me.
Neither party shows much willingness to disarm, agreed. However, the decommissioning has not moved (and looks like it never will) beyond tokenism to maintain the pretense that it has occurred. This is to avoid the British and Irish governments ending the GFA as a result. By the letter of the agreement, it has occured. In the spirit, no way.
The “Naive Idiot” rhetoric may be strong but it has a point. The Agreement itself has become a sacred cow of such value to the Irish and British goverments that almost any abuse short of extreme violence against the UK mainland or British army seems tolerated.
The case for emasculation of the RUC is admitedly moot. The real danger is allowing representatives of terrorists, from both sides, onto the police boards. That is tantamount to putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum. I.e. the police supervisory board has political representatives of the legitimate targets of the police force. Same as the Mafia having representatives on the NYPD police authority.
As for the crime rate - the criminals join the private armies and raise themselves above the law. If the thugs are paramilitaries, they don’t get arrested and sent to jail but the victims still pay the price even if there are fewer of them.
IMHO talking to Adams & McGuiness as if they were politicians with good democratic, non-violent credentials gives them credibility. Not talking to Adams and McGuiness is not a problem if you regard them as representatives of a criminal organisation. Treating them this way reduces the “Irish question” from being a cross-border political can of worms to an internal law enforcement issue. (This is horribly oversimplified but I think you get my drift.)
(Still keepin’ it civil)
Go Alien, the policy of ‘criminalisation’ worked really well in the seventies and eighties, didn’t it? Or have you some innovative twist to the approach which will avoid the tricky side effect of thousands of dead and injured?
I’m sure you mean the 6 counties, as Ulster has 9 counties in it, 3 of which are in the Republic.
What benefit have they seen? Well, here’s two.
-
a fair representation including all political flavours, with fair elections, and a chance for actual matters in their counties (education, industry, tourism) to be dealt with without being overshadowed by “the Prime Ministers problem”.
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A groundwork for a peaceful political solution
Well, I’m sorry if the good ole days of a biased complacent RUC are dead and gone, but the PSNI needed to be created.
and going by the record of the PSNI, which many catholic still see as the RUC wearing different hats, they are very wary of joining.
[quote]
Unless these issues are addressed, the Agreement serves no purpose other than to allow the “Naive Idiot” and Berie Aherne to claim that they brought peace to Ulster. It is a claim written in the blood of all those who are still suffering.
[quote]
Like the people of Short Strand?
There has been two significant acts of decommissioning by the IRA.
none by the loyalists.
And how often to do you see the the petters PUP mentioned in this context?
No, I don’t have a cunning plan. One way of avoiding the thousands of dead and injured is internment. And yes, I know it has been tried before. Whether it would work any better a second time round is unknown. However, it seems logical to me that if the actual and suspected perpetrators of the violence are in jail, then they can’t commit violence.
At the moment, the GFA appears in deep trouble. The lack of any politically acceptable alternative is frightening the assorted governments into propping it up at all costs. The paramilitaries know this and believe they can get away with (literally) murder.
In the long term there will never be peace until all parties agree to non-violent resolution of differences. At the moment, that is not the case. As long as one or more parties keep private armies, there can never be peace, only containment.
Twisty,
Firstly, sorry for posting for you previously, it wasn’t my place at all.
I did it mainly to attempt to keep this thread free of the discussions about NI, and specifically on topic about this alleged security breach.
Guess we are going down that line anyway.
[aside]
Anyone seem the new PSNI uniform up close? Bloody dreadful. No tie, open wide-collar shirt and sweater.
Look like bloody students so they do. No wonder they have no respect in the community. What do you think?
[/aside]
Aro Sorry. I’m at fault too.
And you’re right about the uniforms. But they follow the modern trend in uniforms.
Aro Sorry. I’m at fault too.
And you’re right about the uniforms. But they follow the modern trend.
posting for me? Informed posting is everyones place 
Go Alien,
Who do we intern? I tell you what, why not just abandon the entire legal system of due process, human rights and excecute everyone you think might be capable of committing a crime.
You start drawing up the list while I teach people to goose step.
Internment? Do you know what happened the last time that was tried. I mean apart from the http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/uk_confidential/1731567.stm
One aspect of this incident really has struck me: the virtual immediacy with which unionists seized on it to “prove” that Sinn Féin are not suited to government. I mean, before anybody was even charged with anything.
Now a few people have been charged but there is still AFAIK no evidence to suggest Denis Donaldson, if he is indeed guilty, was acting under the instructions - or even with the knowledge - of anybody else in the party.
I acknowledge the seriousness of it if it does turn out to be true, but unionists aren’t even waiting for the allegations to be proven. The premature eagerness with which they have welcomed this “crisis” only heightens the suspicion that they manufactured it. It also serves as a reminder of how little the concept of “innocent until proven guilty” matters - has ever mattered - in the unionist mind where republicans are concerned.
On preview, I cannot even believe anyone would seriously suggest the possibility of internment again. No, people who are in prison cannot commit violence. But internment managed to increase the amount of violence anyway - simply by increasing the number of people (outside of prison) willing to commit it. You can bet the farm on the same thing happening again if internment is ever reintroduced, although in my wildest nightmares I can’t see that happening.
The GFA may not be the means to achieving a lasting and just peace in Northern Ireland. There are plenty more difficulties to be overcome and accommodations to be reached before an acceptable and enduring constitutional model for Northern Ireland is found. However, the suggestion that internment, a policy that pushed a generation into the arms of the paramilitaries, is part of the alternative is laughable.
While I share Go Alien’s concerns about the slow pace of progress and the level of ‘background’ violence, I reckon his suggested path represents a charter for dissident republicans, loyalists and thugs in the police and army.
The uniforms look like they were designed by a committee comprising Bob the Builder stylists, Sydney Mardi Gras costumiers, and a couple of seven-year-olds told to “draw a friendly policeman”.
Noel Thompson interviewed all the main players soon after the raid, and only Paisley in the Unionist camp was “seizing the moment…”, IMHO.
I had never seen Trimble say so little words, prefering to state only that, if true, was extremely serious, but he wouldn’t comment more until he heard more. He was very coy, almost skeptical. Donaldson (Jeffery) was, suprisingly the same, at least initially. [size=1](BTW, how do you get accents on your words…)[size]
As for internment, I here death is a great way to stop repeat crime. If we just kill everyone , there will be no more crime at all. Bliss.