Smapti is Pitted

[Fuji]

@Smapti

Yes. If I enable slaves to escape, and they are subsequently recaptured and tortured or killed or whatever other gruesome punishments you can imagine being rendered unto a runaway slave and/or his/her family, then it is my fault. And I don’t want that on my conscience.

Oh, this is too fucking rich - he “doesn’t want it on his conscience,” people. :rolleyes:

This from the same craven turd who would have no problem actually committing an atrocity. Disrupting an ongoing atrocity, no siree, can’t do that, no way Jose… :dubious:

In the immortal words of Carl Carlson, “You are garbage made flesh!”

[Smapti]

@andros

You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping, Smapti. Why is that?

Am I supposed to have a moral obligation to provide aid and succor to tortoises now?

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Happy_Fun_Ball

This is not quite right.

I don’t post very much on the SDMB, but I spend a great deal of time on this site. It’s rare that a day passes without me reading what is being discussed here on the dope. That said, I did not take note of Smapti for many years; I don’t know if that is because he did not post much during the early years of his membership here, or if his opinions changed, or maybe I just missed it. Regardless, in the last few years I have noted Smapti’s posts, first with shock, then with disbelief, and finally with horror.

Think of all the people that have advanced the cause of human rights through history: Martin Luther King, Jr., Mohandas Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Paine, William Blackstone, George Mason, etc… All these people fought for civil rights, justice, equality, and the rule of law. These people, and others like them, are why we have equality and justice in this country. They, and others like them, are why we abolished slavery. They are why we don’t stone or decapitate people for heresy or apostasy. They are why we don’t execute our political leaders when they fall out of favor. They are the pillars of our civilization.

The opposite of these people are not the monsters in history like Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot. Nor are they the more common sociopaths like Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, or Ted Bundy. No, it is people like Smapti that are the antithesis of these pillars of our civilization. They are a much more pervasive and banal evil. Even as they claim to abhor things like slavery and murder and rape, they are the tools of the monsters that try to tear down our civilization.

If Smapti lived in the antebellum south, it would not matter that he disapproved of slavery, he would stand by and watch as an entire race of people were enslaved and treated as chattel. He would watch as families were ripped apart, as children were sent to die in fields far from their parents, as women were raped by their owners, and as men were beaten to death when they were too weak or sick to work. Not only would he watch, but we would defend the system if someone rebelled against it. He would decry it as a great wrong out of one side of his mouth while dutifully turning in a child born into slavery that had escaped even if it meant the child’s death.

If Smapti lived in Nazi Germany, he would stand by and watch on Kristallnacht as 30,000 Jews were rounded up and sent to Concentration camps to die even if he knew this would be their fate. If the SS could not find where a Jewish family was hiding on that night, Smapti would give them directions regardless of his feelings as they are the representatives of the state and the state is always right.

It is people like Smapti that made up the community members at Jamestown; if he were there he would have mixed the Koolaide and cyanide and given it to the children there as their divine leader, Jim Jones, demanded. People like Smapti, as members of the FLDS church, obediently delivered up their wives and daughters for rape by Warren Jeffs and the other church elders. It was people like Smapti that plunged their knives into Sharon Tate’s eight and a half month pregnant body killing her and her unborn child at the orders of their leader, Charles Manson.

People like Smapti have renounced their humanity and abdicated all personal responsibility for justice in the world. Morality is not relevant when discussing them as the have relinquished any judgement of good or evil. It does not matter what they believe or feel. It does not matter what they have been taught. It only matters that they will unquestionably do and support what their superiors tell them. Good is what their government and leaders tell them and evil is anything that opposes it.

Luckily, Smapti is irrelevant as a US citizen; the US (for all of its many, many faults) is mostly a force for human rights and good in the world. If, instead, Smapti lived in a different country or time, he would have been a tool used to rape, murder, and commit genocide. People like Smapti are the worst of us.

So basically, Smapti is worse than Hitler?

…I’m surprisingly open to that consideration…

[woodstockbirdybird]

I’d imagine most people’s use of the term “moral obligation” would at the most basic level consist of “alleviating an animal’s (to include humans) pain and suffering and/or preventing its death when there’s no danger to you”, yeah. But - and this really bears repeating - you are 100% a piece of shit, so I’m sure you think it’s fine to let a tortoise needlessly suffer as long as the state’s not compelling you to help it.

[Smapti]

@woodstockbirdybird

I’d imagine most people’s use of the term “moral obligation” would at the most basic level consist of “alleviating an animal’s (to include humans) pain and suffering and/or preventing its death when there’s no danger to you”, yeah. But - and this really bears repeating - you are 100% a piece of shit, so I’m sure you think it’s fine to let a tortoise needlessly suffer as long as the state’s not compelling you to help it.

Jump to conclusions much? I never said I wouldn’t flip the tortoise back over - there’s no sense in letting an animal suffer needlessly. I just objected to the idea that I have some sort of moral obligation to reptiles.

[iiandyiiii]

@Smapti

I never said I wouldn’t flip the tortoise back over - there’s no sense in letting an animal suffer needlessly.

But if you flip it over, it might be torn apart by a falcon and subject to a grisly, painful death. How can you risk having that on your conscience?

[Happy_Fun_Ball]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

So basically, Smapti is worse than Hitler?

…I’m surprisingly open to that consideration…

It is people like Smapti that made Hitler’s actions possible. When they came for the Jews, I did not speak for I was not a Jew…

[Smapti]

@iiandyiiii

But if you flip it over, it might be torn apart by a falcon and subject to a grisly, painful death. How can you risk having that on your conscience?

But the falcon gets to eat.

[iiandyiiii]

@Smapti

But the falcon gets to eat.

Why can you risk this, but not risk anything for the slaves?

[Smapti]

@iiandyiiii

Why can you risk this, but not risk anything for the slaves?

Turtles and falcons are not slaves and slaveowners. There is no lawful alignment of status between them. Questions of law and morality do not apply to them - they’re non-sapient creatures incapable of contemplating such things.

The law of Hypothetica defines a slave as the property of its master, and as a guest in that nation I am obliged to follow the local laws.

[Smapti]

@Happy_Fun_Ball

It is people like Smapti that made Hitler’s actions possible. When they came for the Jews, I did not speak for I was not a Jew…

The overwhelming majority of Germans were law-abiding people who kept their heads down and supported the war effort because it was the patriotic thing to do. Does that make the entire German people evil? Did they cease to be evil after the war? At what point did they become evil? Was the average German citizen obliged to throw themselves under the treads of tanks and engage in terrorism against their government in order to avoid being labeled ‘evil’? If we assume that the Iraq war was an unlawful invasion of a sovereign nation, does that make the overwhelming majority of Americans evil for failing to stop it?

[iiandyiiii]

@Smapti

Turtles and falcons are not slaves and slaveowners. There is no lawful alignment of status between them. Questions of law and morality do not apply to them - they’re non-sapient creatures incapable of contemplating such things.

The law of Hypothetica defines a slave as the property of its master, and as a guest in that nation I am obliged to follow the local laws.

This is a morally repugnant stance, and makes you a very bad neighbor and a very bad human being. This moral stance has a terrible history on earth and has caused enormous amounts of suffering and disorder.

[Smapti]

@iiandyiiii

This is a morally repugnant stance, and makes you a very bad neighbor and a very bad human being. This moral stance has a terrible history on earth and has caused enormous amounts of suffering and disorder.

Was every American citizen from 1776 to 1865 who did not participate in the Underground Railroad a “very bad human being”?

[iiandyiiii]

@Smapti

Was every American citizen from 1776 to 1865 who did not participate in the Underground Railroad a “very bad human being”?

Not necessarily, though not opposing slavery was a mark against them. But they are partially excused by the ignorance of the time. You are not.

[Smapti]

@iiandyiiii

Not necessarily, though not opposing slavery was a mark against them. But they are partially excused by the ignorance of the time. You are not.

So they weren’t evil, they were just stupid. That’s much better.

This is the problem with trying to define morality as an objective standard that is universal irrespective of time and place - eventually, you wind up having to define millions or billions of people, or even the majority of the human race, as either evil or stupid.

And that is chauvinistic, self-centric, and repugnant.

[Velocity]

So, Smapti, if you were a slave, enduring the horrors of slavery, and there was someone who could open but decided not to open a gate lock for you for fear of your possible capture and punishment being "on his conscience,…how’d you feel?
Does the Golden Rule mean anything?

[Smapti]

@Velocity

So, Smapti, if you were a slave, enduring the horrors of slavery, and there was someone who could open but decided not to open a gate lock for you for fear of your possible capture and punishment being "on his conscience,…how’d you feel?

I wouldn’t like it.

Does the Golden Rule mean anything?

Arguments from religion rarely do.

[clairobscur]

@Smapti

Vaccinating people against polio is an injustice? Bringing Osama bin Laden to justice is an injustice?

Eradicating polio worldwide wasn’t a CIA initiative. Ruining the project by using it as a cover was, on the other hand.

[MrDibble]

@Smapti

The overwhelming majority of Germans were law-abiding people who kept their heads down and supported the war effort because it was the patriotic thing to do.

I don’t think so - I think the majority of them were quite OK with Jew/Gypsy/Slav/Gay/Communist-hate, not just “keeping their heads down”

Does that make the entire German people evil?

No. A people can’t collectively be evil. But it makes the actions of a lot of Germans evil - all the ones who did nothing, as well.

Did they cease to be evil after the war?

Some of them, no doubt. Some doubtless went to their graves thinking they were right, too.

At what point did they become evil?

When they started doing evil things

Was the average German citizen obliged to throw themselves under the treads of tanks and engage in terrorism against their government in order to avoid being labeled ‘evil’?

False dichotomy. They could just speak up, or engage in passive resistance, or hide some Jews, whatever they feel comfortable with that isn’t doing nothing.

If we assume that the Iraq war was an unlawful invasion of a sovereign nation, does that make the overwhelming majority of Americans evil for failing to stop it?

No, only the ones who either were for it, or did nothing, as opposed to speaking up. Failing to stop it isn’t the issue, not even trying is.

[Kobal2]

@Smapti

Arguments from religion rarely do.

The Golden Rule has nothing to do with religion. It’s more game theory than anything.