And I’ll bet that any Jews contemporaneous to the origin of this ‘’‘ritual’‘’ would have easily recognized the anti-Semitic trope it’s based on.
‘Jews are the Synagogue of Satan and killed the Christ, who else would you go to if you want to learn how to summon Satan and his demons?’
I think more the embarrassment is for the blindly devoted crying “He’s doing a ritual wrong!”
It’s not that he’s doing it ‘wrong’; it is that he is doing it without actually understanding what he is doing. It is analogous to people making up bizarre inerpretations of quantum mechanics without actually mastering the mathematics behind quantum mechanics. Their methods and conclusions are meaningless because they don’t actually understand anything about the basic premises of what their philosophy is addressing.
Stranger
I guess I’m seeing a difference between centuries-old primitive superstitions and quantum mechanics, but maybe that’s just me.
The Devil: [takes off his mirrored sunglasses, revealing mirrored eyes] Okay, here’s the deal. All that mathematical lingo you were spouting? It’s beautiful, man, it’s like poetry. Brought tears to my eyes. Just happened to have the right phonetic structure to be a good old-fashioned demonic invocation. Especially with that neat little curse woven into it.
But if they did, no one would care and they’d just be told to get over it, because they aren’t oppressed enough.
Getting quantum mechanics correct is important because it’s an accurate and useful model of the universe. That isn’t true of any religion or esoteric ritual. They can have value to humans in promoting community and shared values, and/or aiding understanding of self and others, but 100% accuracy in following traditions isn’t essential to get the benefit.
I am a lot more bothered by cultural appropriation when it is commodified and institutionalized. What people want to do in their own lives may strike me as funny or weird or clueless, but it is only when I can buy the shirt at Wal-Mart or see billboards that it starts to bother me. Exactly how much and in which way it bothers me is context dependent.
So what Smati is doing doesn’t bother me, but if he ia paying someone to teach or guide him, what THAT person is doing sorta does.
I consider @Smapti a longtime online friend because we’re both wrestling nerds. This new lifepath he chose does surprise me, but I don’t think he intends any disrespect. Maybe he considers other means of self-improvement lacking and wants to experience something totally outside his comfort zone.
I’ve dabbled in Buddhism and meditation, but I don’t think I could possibly match the devotion level of cloistered monks. Just the smattering of Buddhist lore helped me deal with depression and stress, and if Smapti finds the rigors of Kabbalah too much to handle, at least he kept an open mind to something outside his rut. I think the last thing he intends is to become a self-appointed authority on Kabbalah.
Smapti, whatever you do, don’t go all cult leader on us!
This is much closer to how I define it, personally. The word is appropriation — taking something away, so the original owner loses possession and/or control.
If I make, say, Sichuan hot pot, I am not performing cultural appropriation. I’m just making dinner. I may make it well or I may make it badly, but what I’m doing doesn’t affect anyone.
But if a national restaurant chain owned by non-Chinese people becomes successful for selling a version of Sichuan hot pot that’s simplified and softened for non-Chinese palates, and this inauthentic dish catches on to the point that recipe kits are sold based on the alternative recipe and ingredient availability shifts to favor the alternative and immigrants’ own kids begin to favor fhe restaurant version over the historically and regionally authentic original — that would qualify as cultural appropriation.
I have a much narrower, more focused definition of the concept than the more common understanding, most typically exemplified by squealing online offenderati who performatively demonstrate their social-justice bona fides for clicks and influence by pointing the finger at celebrities with dopey tribal tattoos and the like. Most of that is nonsense, ultimately self-centered and pointless.
But cultural appropriation in which some element of culture is legitimately appropriated? Yeah. That’s a real thing.
The “kabbalah” ceremony is in kind of a gray area. There are enough new-agey dipshits dabbling in the practices that genuine adherents can be impacted by the gravitational pull in the culture. I don’t think, in this case, that one person alone can engage in cultural appropriation, but I do think that thousands and thousands of ignorant doofuses misinterpreting and misapplying the teachings can create enough cultural noise that the true believers are forced to adapt.
To what extent do you figure a clear disclaimer can mitigate that?
I don’t know what you mean. Like, one person saying “I know I’m using the Tarot cards wrong, but I like to do it this way, don’t take my practices for anything but my own practices”?
I get what you mean, but I am going to feel like the harm is mostly done by the person selling whatever. Othwrwise the doofus brigade will burn itself out.
Well, yeah, that — but also up to the level of a national corporation, or an international one, spelling it out.
The doofus Smapti is following is from the 15th century, it ain’t burning itself out.
You just described “Papa John’s” pizza, by a Teutonic guy named Schnatter. Some of my earliest memories are of my immigrant nonna’s handmade old-country style pizza, made with her homemade sauce, for her warm, loving extended family. I cherish my memories of her. Who the hell does this Schnatter think he is, profiting off my people’s culture?
I straight up assumed his original post was some dumb April Fools Day joke until I saw this thread (I never read any posts he starts).
I have addressed this already. In, fact, I believe I have done it several times. Here is one of them
Again,
There is no God but the God of Abraham. This is one of the basics. You have to throw this out if you are altering Kabbalah for worship of Jesus or Hermes Trismisgestus.
Again, Kabbalah is based on certain basic things. Throwing out those things or changing them is nonsensical at best. Hindu deities are worshipped in a variety of ways. If somebody from another religion starts their own practices of worshipping one of the Hindu gods, there is not usually a problem. If they decide that sacrificing cows is the way to go, then they have missed a basic tenet.
Two very different areas of Judaism. What is and is not blasphemy is strictly defined by Jewish law. Claiming to be the messiah is not blasphemy. It is however an extraordinary claim and requires extraordinary evidence.
Kabbalah is definitely a Jewish thing, It is not a canon Jewish thing. No Jewish law requires you to agree with it, study it at all, or practice it ever. You can argue that none of the basics I listed are true. You cannot argue that Kabbalah is based on those things. If you change or eliminate any of those things, what you have left is no longer properly called Kabbalah. You’ve misunderstood some very basic and essential things about Kabbalah.
I disagree rather strongly. Once again, Kaballah is based on certain tenets. Altering or eliminating any of thesei disrespectful and shows a basic lack of understanding. Drawing Mohammed becuase it is forbidden? Yeah, that is disrespectufl. Drawing Mohammed as a sincerely felt expression of devotion to Islam? That is just confusing and shows a lack or basic research and understanding.
“Blindly devoted”?
Again, it is not “He’s doing a ritual wrong!”. It is “He is practicing a ritual claiming ti be from a Jewish tradition while showing a basic lack of research and understanding about the very foundations of that tradition!”
Yeah. If you read the original thread, Dr Strangelove hints that it is all some April Fool’s prank and we have all been whooshed. I respond ‘Oh. That makes sense. Nevermind.’ Then, Smapti says that the date is just a coincidence and he is very serious.
I know you think that was an interesting response, but…it’s not.
This is really well-stated. I’ve been trying to think about what distinguishes cultural appropriation from adopting certain cultural practices from other folks, and this sums up the distinction better than I could.
Edit: with the addition of “my culture is not your costume” seeming pretty on-target to me. If someone is adopting a serious practice from another culture as a goof, or as an ironic fashion statement, or something like that, nah.
But adopting a serious practice and changing it for serious reasons? I’m not upset by that.
I don’t want to be rude, but to my thinking, the only sense in any religious practice is the sense that the practitioner finds in it. I once was part of a pagan group that celebrated Lughnasadh’s ritual with a God and Goddess consisting of Jesus and Mary, and another time celebrated a holy day with the God and Goddess being Elvis and Marilyn. It didn’t necessarily work for me, but if other folks found sense in it, more power to them.
If someone takes parts of one practice and changes them to find sense in them, they might be “nonsensical at best” to you, but clear it’s sensible to them–and there’s no objective sensibility to religious practice.
This is a good point. I withdraw my statement that what Smapti is doing is cultural appropriation. It’s cultural borrowing, i guess.
Me, too. Humans have traditionally done poorly with unbridled power. There are a plethora of tyrants and empires that can witness to that. If a desire to summon Lucifer so that you can enslave him to your will isn’t a very strong sign of delusions of grandeur, I don’t know what is.