The story recounted here. According to the story the Oregonian women were given some information from ‘Mexican Tortilla Ladies’ but stole some techniques they weren’t told about. Not nice I think, but hardly different from the way many cooking techniques have been developed at local enterprises. Doesn’t change my mind on the subject in general. I can at least see an argument for using the term ‘misappropriation’ here.
This almost led me down a rabbit hole but luckily, I avoided falling in.
Reading this thread, I thought to myself “I wonder if Dr Justin Sledge at the YT-channel Esoterica has some info about Kabbalah?”
Well, yeah. A series of 14 one hour long videos describing everything, from the origin up to modern times. I was not about to dive that deep, so I browsed and at the very end he comments on modern users. He loves it. He thinks its great that there is secular studies of the practices of Kabbalah, that it’s great that it’s made available for many more people. He does say that those who want to dig deeper will have to start learning Hebrew and go to Brooklyn or Israel.
@DocCathode is fond of saying “Two Jews, three opinions” so maybe I shouldn’t use the opinion of another Jew against him. Sledge belongs to T’Chiyah (" We are a progressive, participatory, and whole-heartedly inclusive Jewish community in Metro Detroit.") which is Reconstructing Judaism if I read their website correctly.
IOW, “Two Jews, three opinions.” What one sees as cultural appropriation, another sees as a way of spreading belief.
Just the first one “There is no God but the God of Abraham.” (NOTE- Not all Jews are righteous people. Not all righteous people are Jews.) That I don’t believe the basic tenets of Kabbalah is a major reason I do not practice it.
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My mistake. I failed to Google. I meant no offense. I would also like to point out now and the many times this is sure to happen in the future- this mistake was entirely my fault. I do mispronounce Hindi words, get their transliteration wrong, and make plenty of other errors. This is no reflection on my beloved.
Because they are requirements. You need emotional control and mental focus in order to practice Kabbalah. They are not taught or gained by the practice of Kabbalah. Reading a book written entirely in French is a waste of time if you do not speak any French.
Serious question- why? Judaism does not require religious belief. Kabbalah has as its basis articles of religious faith.
You keep asking this question. No one owes you an explanation for what rituals they choose and why they choose one thing over something else. You are not the gatekeeper of religious practices.
Yes I do. I will continue to keep asking it.
No, they don’t. But if somebody starts a thread specifically about undergoing a six month long ritual, asking why they chose that particular ritual is not just a vald question but one they should expect.
Charlie_Tan Shared something somebody said in a YouTube video. I would be rather surprised if Dr Justin Sledge left it at saying
without givins any explanation of why he feels that way.
No, I am not. I don’t remember ever claiming to be. To quote another poster
Obviously, I disagree with the first bit. I included it so not to be accused of unfair snipping. The rest of it I agree with completely.
So why is it worse to do a ritual wrong than to do it correctly, if you don’t believe it’s going to ‘work’ either way? If Smapti was following genuine Kabbalah, would that really be less bad?
(What makes a person righteous in your view?)
Ah, got it. You’re not gatekeeping, you’re just telling them they shouldn’t follow a ritual if they don’t do it the way you think it should be done.
Does that argument actually work anywhere?
I gave a brief summary of the ten minutes I watched. There are 14+ hours of video.
Follow this link and go to 1.02:30
Some direct quotes:
“We’re now living in the golden age of kabbalistic literature”
“You have to work hard to become a Kabbalist, you have to learn Hebrew and Aramaic. You may have to move to Israel or Brooklyn. You have to do really really heavy lifting if you want to get into Kabbalah.”
He expresses joy that there is so much on Kabbalah, including a full English translation of Zohar, things that were inaccessible not so long ago. I do not in any way get the impression that he wants to restrict this to Jews.
In fact, he says: “Didn’t Brittney Spears have a Kaballastic tattoo or something on her neck? I don’t know. But You Go, Brittney.”
Rituals from any religion or culture generally have some requirements to be performed properly. Is there a specific day, time or date? How many participants? What objects are needed? What must everybody do and say to fulfill the ritual? As I said the rituals of Kaballah require belief in the basic tenets.
Again without meeting the requirments, you are not following the ritual correctly. If I obtain the proper clothes, memorize the proper prayers and carryout the actions of a baptism ceremony- is it a valid baptism despite my not being ordained or a Christian?
That is outside the scope of this thread. I added that only to prevent people from misunderstanding me and drawing the wrong conclusions.
First, that is not what you said.
No, I am not the gatekeeper of religious practices. First, I have not set myself up (even in my own mind) as some special and superior authority. Second, in this case the thing I am objecting to is a religious practice. I object to other forms of cultural appropriation as well.
Finally, that’s a use of the word “gatekeeping” I have never encountered before. Whether or not people who do not believe in a religion should practice any of the rituals of that religion, especially those that require faith as a pre requisite, is a matter of opinion. Whether Smapti is a member of that religion or has that faith is not.
Surprisingly, the answer seems to be yes, at least according to the Catholic church:
Main caveat is that you’d have to intend to do a genuine baptism and not just be playacting.
You don’t even need the clothes or memorize the right words. If your heart’s in it, you can validly baptize another person in eminent danger of death, even if you’re not Christian (at least that goes for Catholicism):
ETA: it seems that a little sprinkling with water is welcomed, but if you don’t have any water and use your spit, it will count too in the book of the Church.
It is a valid baptism even if you are not a Christian or ordained. From Archways, out of the New York Archdiocese.
…People are sometimes surprised to learn that a non-Christian or even an atheist can perform a baptism. As long as he or she says the correct words (“I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”) and puts “living water” (that is, water that flows in some manner) in contact with the body of the person being baptized, then the baptism is real.
The person administering the sacrament simply has to intend to do what the Church does in baptism. He or she does not have to know anything about baptism or sacramental theology. Rather he must wish, if only implicitly, to baptize, even if he has no idea what that entails. In other words, he just cannot explicitly not want a baptism to take place while administering it. That’s a pretty minimal criterion…
I baptized many babies as a NICU nurse when their parents wished it and there was not time to bring in a priest or deacon. A few drops of water, a few words and the intention to baptize was all that was needed. Me being an atheist mattered not a whit.
[ninja’ed by EinsteinHund, so I’m in good company]
Odd, that. IME, it seems to be the inverse of “cultural appropriation.” So, kinda counterintuitive that you’ve never encountered the concept.
As a Jew, this is a little awkward for me, but I’m pretty sure it’s “imminent.”
Re Baptism
I sit corrected. That was a bad example then.
I am familiar with the concept of gatekeeping and have encountered it and participated in discussions about it. TroutMan’s use of the term to describe what I am doing is what I have not enountered before.
Claiming somebody is not qualified to wear a shirt or is not really a fan? That would be gatekeeping.
Claiming some one who is not a member of a particular religion and does not believe the basic tenets that are requirement to perform a specific ritual should not perform that ritual? I would not call that gatekeeping.
Sorry, my bad, mixing up English words again… 
When the person doing the claiming also doesn’t believe those tenets, I think would call it that (maybe with a dash of “white knighting”).
I don’t think it’s a coincidence. This is why, way back at the beginning of the thread, I said it might be an issue of cultural differences. AFAIK Christianity is much more about having the correct beliefs and intentions, and following the spirit of the law, while in Judaism it’s comparatively more important to follow the letter of the law. I dunno how Smapti was raised, but we know he’s not Jewish, and the US is a majority Christian country, so he’s more likely to have acquired the attitude that changing a ritual slightly to made it doable for him is nbd.
Why? Because religion is more important to you, personally, than fandom? Why should it be, anyway?
Does it give you happiness to keep ranting about how wrong he is?