Smoking Question

[kelly5078]

@kimstu

I know you can’t be asking for a cite that breathing negligibly small amounts of smoke poses non-neglible health risks, because as I’ve already noted more than once, everybody here already agrees with you that that isn’t true. You did notice that, right?

I can’t parse this, but no, I don’t think that everyone here agrees with me. That’s okay, really, I don’t mind. My problem is that this is GQ, so there should be real answers to a question.

@kimstu

So what exactly are you requesting a cite for? Please quote the specific statement that you feel needs a cite.

Gladly.

@Carol Stream

Is there any scientific evidence that smoking outdoors harms anyone?

Really, no one here has particularly flipped my switch, although the messiness-of-smokers hijack is a little annoying (and would be more so except that I happen to agree that they tend to make a mess). But that idiotic quote from the Surgeon General’s report did set me off. A statement like that is irresponsible, particularly as we’re basing laws on it. I accept that smoking is dangerous; I accept that secondhand smoke in enclosed places can be dangerous; but I do not accept that what I’ve already quoted twice is anything but bullcrap. It opens the door to making it illegal to smoke in your backyard because your neighbor could be harmed. And don’t even try to tell me that’s absurd.

[samclem]

@chowder

Don’t fucking generalise.

Incidentally, I am not a pig…so fuck you…to put it bluntly

Also, you’re talking out of your arse when you state that half of all litter comes from smokers

MODERATOR WARNING

chowder. This is General Questions. Insults to another poster are NOT allowed in this forum.

samclem GQ moderator

[Kimstu]

@kelly

I can’t parse this, but no, I don’t think that everyone here agrees with me.

Actually, I was saying (and sorry if I was unclear) that everyone here does agree with you that breathing negligible amounts of smoke doesn’t pose any non-negligible health risks.

What we’re saying is that you can’t extrapolate from that to sweeping, unqualified statements like “smoking outdoors never does any harm to anybody, period”.

How much harm secondhand smoke does depends on how much of it non-smokers are breathing. While in most outdoor spaces non-smokers may be breathing only negligible amounts of smoke, in some outdoor spaces they’ll be breathing more. I mean, this is just simple common sense, right?

@kelly

Gladly. “Is there any scientific evidence that smoking outdoors harms anyone?”

Yes. For example, this study by researchers at UC Berkeley and Stanford, “Real-Time Monitoring of Outdoor Environmental Tobacco Smoke Concentrations” (PDF), found that in some circumstances, concentrations of environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) in outdoor environments are comparable to those in smokers’ indoor environments:

As summarized in Table 1.1 for the illustrative case of 0.3?0.4 ?m particle number concentration, we found that mean outdoor ETS concentrations determined from field surveys and controlled patio experiments during periods of smoking activity can reach mean ETS concentration levels measured indoors.

Since, as you’ve already acknowledged, secondhand smoke (ETS) in indoor environments can be harmful, then comparable amounts of secondhand smoke in outdoor environments can be harmful too, right?

In other words, as I said, how much harm secondhand smoke does depends on how much of it non-smokers are breathing. And the amount of secondhand smoke in outdoor environments can vary from negligible amounts up to levels comparable with the levels in smoky indoor environments.

Which is why it’s silly to try to make sweeping statements about outdoor smoking never doing any harm at all. If there’s enough smoke concentrated in a particular site, breathing it will involve non-negligible health hazards irrespective of whether the site is indoors or outdoors.

Seriously, did you really need cites from published research for what IMO are such basic common-sense conclusions?

@kelly

It opens the door to making it illegal to smoke in your backyard because your neighbor could be harmed.

I agree that the health risks to your neighbor from your smoking in your own (well-ventilated) backyard are probably completely negligible in most cases. And I agree that it’s wrong for overzealous legislators to pretend that mostly-negligible health risks are the same as serious health risks.

But I don’t think that the right way to approach the problem is to insist on unsupportable absolutist over-generalizations about outdoor smoking never causing any harm to anybody, period. Obviously, outdoor ETS can cause harm, as long as there’s enough of it, just as indoor ETS can. Trying to deny that obvious fact will just make smoking opponents even less sympathetic to your side of the argument.

[Carol_Stream]

@Qadgop the Mercotan

Why do you assert that? Have you a cite?

We’ve already seen by Jackmannii’s cite of the Surgeon-General’s report that second-hand smoking is harmful; where you inhale the fumes doesn’t matter.

No, it doesn’t matter whrere the fumes are inhaled, but why not stay away from people who are smoking? Is it really that difficult?

[Lynn_Bodoni]

@Carol Stream

No, it doesn’t matter whrere the fumes are inhaled, but why not stay away from people who are smoking? Is it really that difficult?

When the smokers are congregated around a doorway I MUST use, yes, it’s very difficult. Sometimes impossible. I really don’t care if people smoke…as long as I don’t have to breathe the stuff personally.

[Carol_Stream]

@Lynn Bodoni

When the smokers are congregated around a doorway I MUST use, yes, it’s very difficult. Sometimes impossible. I really don’t care if people smoke…as long as I don’t have to breathe the stuff personally.

I realize that GQ is not meant to be a debate forum, but permit be to respond to this, please.

MUST you walk thru the ONE (outdoor) smoking area? Not a building entrance, but a totally outdoor location?

[Hilarity_N.Suze]

Here’s how deaths from lung cancer used to be reported at a VA hospital that collected lots of data: If the victim was a smoker, or had ever been a smoker, then the lung cancer was caused by smoking. If the victim was a nonsmoker, then the cancer was caused by secondhand smoke. From that, somebody extrapolated that all lung cancer was caused by cigarette smoke, one way or another. Although it sounds to me like that’s what they believed in the first place.

Ever since hearing that statistic I don’t worry about secondhand smoke. There’s plenty enough other things to worry about anyway.

[SparrowHawk]

My neighbor smokes on his deck outside. It drifts over the hedge and into my bedroom windows. It stinks badly enough, it has woken me out of a sound sleep. I wish he’d go inside and pollute his own house.

[Polycarp]

@Carol Stream

I realize that GQ is not meant to be a debate forum, but permit be to respond to this, please.

MUST you walk thru the ONE (outdoor) smoking area? Not a building entrance, but a totally outdoor location?

If the main entry to the building is designated as the one outdoor smoking area, either the architect or the building administrator is, to be objective and charitable, a blooming idiot.

Otherwise, there are ways to handle it – designate the entry area as “No smoking” and a place nearby as the designated smoking area; or put the smoking area outside a rear entry not in common use. Other solutions are possible.

[Quiddity_Glomfuster]

@Kimstu

So to avoid spreading disease via the fecal-oral route from the fecal matter that you pick up on your hands when touching the skin in your pelvic region, you should WASH YOUR HANDS AFTER URINATING OR DEFECATING.

Do you people not use toilet paper? I’m not at all interested in getting any fecal matter on my hands at all and do everything in my power to avoid it (wads of paper betwixt you and any possible offending matter do the job nicely).

Are a lot of people still using outhouses? With catalogues or something? How do they manage to mess their hands :eek:

(I don’t honestly want the gory details - just use the flippin’ toilet paper!!!)

Back to smoking. If you’re smoking within about 30 feet of me at an outdoors venue, I’ll smell you.

If you go outside into an alley all by yourself to smoke but come in with smoke all over your clothes (as you will), I will smell you. After a while, I’ll be coughing.

I used to cough my butt off about 3:30 every afternoon at work. I finally figured out that my office mate, who was a smoker, had by that time of day enough accumulated smoke on his clothes that he started me coughing.

So the answer is that you may think you don’t reek of it or trail it around because you smoked outdoors or are smoking outdoors but it travels and it clings.

[samclem]

@Hilarity N. Suze

Here’s how deaths from lung cancer used to be reported at a VA hospital that collected lots of data: If the victim was a smoker, or had ever been a smoker, then the lung cancer was caused by smoking. If the victim was a nonsmoker, then the cancer was caused by secondhand smoke.

Which hospital, and what time frame?

@Hilarity N. Suze

From that, somebody extrapolated that all lung cancer was caused by cigarette smoke, one way or another. Although it sounds to me like that’s what they believed in the first place.

Can you point me in the direction of where and by whom this report was issued?

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@Quiddity Glomfuster

Do you people not use toilet paper? I’m not at all interested in getting any fecal matter on my hands at all and do everything in my power to avoid it (wads of paper betwixt you and any possible offending matter do the job nicely).

Are a lot of people still using outhouses? With catalogues or something? How do they manage to mess their hands :eek:

The entire groin area gets colonized by the intestinal flora. So touching the penis or vulvar area contaminates the hands with the same bacteria as is generally found in the stool. That’s why you have to wash.

Cecil covered this.

[Quiddity_Glomfuster]

@Qadgop the Mercotan

The entire groin area gets colonized by the intestinal flora. So touching the penis or vulvar area contaminates the hands with the same bacteria as is generally found in the stool. That’s why you have to wash.

Cecil covered this.

Q the M, I get that. What I don’t get is how anybody is touching the actual groin area at all. Like. Ew. Ok, you’re a guy, you have stuff to grab. I am not and therefore do not.

[rock_party]

I’d like to know how many forest fires and brush fires are caused by cig butts. And of the fires caused by by smoking, how many people are harmed or even killed? Another note, I had a roommate who smoked and he caught the kitchen trash can on fire twice emptying ashtrays full of butts in it.

[kelly5078]

@kimstu

Which is why it’s silly to try to make sweeping statements about outdoor smoking never doing any harm at all.

If what I posted seemed to imply this, then I didn’t write very clearly.

[zagloba]

@Carol Stream

Is there any scientific evidence that smoking outdoors harms anyone?

No, it doesn’t matter whrere the fumes are inhaled, but why not stay away from people who are smoking? Is it really that difficult?

You need to define what you mean by “harms.” If to me the odor of tobacco smoke is extremely noisome, and I must either endure it or alter my course to avoid it, then my happiness is impaired, however minimally.

[chowder]

@Cerowyn

You reject a person’s right to complain about things that are harmful to them? That’s a rather odd position to take.

I didn’t say I reject them. I said I’m sick of the constant whinging. I respect anyones right to complain but for fucks sake stop having a go at us smokers.

We have had it up to here, at least I have.

[chowder]

@samclem

MODERATOR WARNING

chowder. This is General Questions. Insults to another poster are NOT allowed in this forum.

samclem GQ moderator

Excuse me a moment. Why am I warned and yet Askance who called smokers pigs is not.

I’m a smoker and I’m certainly not a pig

[Lynn_Bodoni]

@Polycarp

If the main entry to the building is designated as the one outdoor smoking area, either the architect or the building administrator is, to be objective and charitable, a blooming idiot.

Otherwise, there are ways to handle it – designate the entry area as “No smoking” and a place nearby as the designated smoking area; or put the smoking area outside a rear entry not in common use. Other solutions are possible.

There are also some smokers (not all) who believe that all of outdoors is a smoking area, “No Smoking” signs be damned. I do avoid designated smoking areas, and while I would enjoy dining on the patios of various restaurants, well, those are smoking areas and I have no intention of asking to be seated there. Them’s the breaks. My main beef is with smokers who disregard common sense, courtesy, and the law by smoking in nonsmoking areas.

[chowder]

Lynn can you answer the question I posted above in response to a Mod warning