Snake Bite: To Suck or Not to Suck...

[outlierrn]

@Thudlow_Boink

What I remember, from learning about snakes and/or first aid in my younger days, is that what you could apply is, properly speaking, not a tourniquet but a constriction band. A tourniquet, per se, is supposed to be as tight as possible: tight enough to pretty much cut off blood flow altogether, which is what you want if you’ve already lost a limb and want to keep from bleeding to death, but not if you’re trying to keep all your arms and legs. I seem to recall something about a snakebite constriction band being loose enough that you can slip two fingers underneath it, but that’s just going from memory.

AIUI, constriction bands are considered* useful for primarily neurotoxic envenomations such as Coral and Cobra snakes. Sequester the venom away from the CNS, transport to a hospital and initiate anti-venom therapy before releasing the band. OTOH, Rattlesnake** venom is primarily hemolytic (think of getting an injection of drano or battery acid), so constriction is contraindicated, concentrating the venom in one place will likely worsen the effect.

*Last I checked, reliable studies were lacking.
** The Mojave Green being the exception.

[Chronos]

I thought that pit viper venom was generally myotoxic, and that the idea was to keep it away from the heart?

[Acid_Lamp]

@Thudlow_Boink

What I remember, from learning about snakes and/or first aid in my younger days, is that what you could apply is, properly speaking, not a tourniquet but a constriction band. A tourniquet, per se, is supposed to be as tight as possible: tight enough to pretty much cut off blood flow altogether, which is what you want if you’ve already lost a limb and want to keep from bleeding to death, but not if you’re trying to keep all your arms and legs. I seem to recall something about a snakebite constriction band being loose enough that you can slip two fingers underneath it, but that’s just going from memory.

Now that you mention it, that’s the term I was looking for earlier. Forgot the difference as both are used interchangeably in the industry. :smack:

At any rate, if you find yourself in need of self administered first aid, or will not reach help for a while, a constriction band is probably a good call. Anything that keeps the venom away from the central systems is of net benefit to your survival, though as a another poster noted, Haemotoxic species and those that have combined functions may cause more tissue damage by concentrating the venom.

[Raguleader]

@Thudlow_Boink

What I remember, from learning about snakes and/or first aid in my younger days, is that what you could apply is, properly speaking, not a tourniquet but a constriction band. A tourniquet, per se, is supposed to be as tight as possible: tight enough to pretty much cut off blood flow altogether, which is what you want if you’ve already lost a limb and want to keep from bleeding to death, but not if you’re trying to keep all your arms and legs. I seem to recall something about a snakebite constriction band being loose enough that you can slip two fingers underneath it, but that’s just going from memory.

In the Air Force, they tell us to make a tourniquet tight enough so that you can get two fingers under it. Any tighter and you’ll do additional damage (that said, the tourniquet is definitely intended for life-or-limb situations). Also, you should mark the victim with a T and the time you applied the tourniquet so the medical professionals will know what they’re dealing with (we were told to use the victim’s blood, since it is presumably handy for most situations where we would use a tourniquet, but I imagine a sharpee will work too if that’s all you’ve got).

[outlierrn]

You want to spead the pressure over a wide surface area for a tourniquet. We use a manual blood pressure cuff in the ER. Of course we’re usually not trying to close the femoral artery, but still, you’d be much better off using a wide leather belt over a folded towel, than, say, a length of paracord. Assuming the same effect at the wound, the paracord will cause crush injury locally.

[outlierrn]

@Chronos

That, and make sure to keep the victim away from alcohol. I’ve heard that part of the reason rattlesnakes got a reputation for being so deadly was the traditional “cure” of a bunch of whiskey: Alcohol actually makes the effects of snakebite worse.

well, there is this, according to wiki

In Thailand, a concoction of alcohol and the ground root of turmeric is ingested, which has been clinically shown to create a strong resilience against the venom of the king cobra, and other snakes with neurotoxic venom

@Chronos

I thought that pit viper venom was generally myotoxic, and that the idea was to keep it away from the heart?

No, the pit vipers are mostly hemolytic toxin, that doesn’t mean they aren’t bad ass

Experiments have shown that, when deprived of their senses of sight and smell, these snakes can strike accurately at moving objects that are less than 0.2°C warmer than the background

[Raguleader]

@outlierrn

You want to spead the pressure over a wide surface area for a tourniquet. We use a manual blood pressure cuff in the ER. Of course we’re usually not trying to close the femoral artery, but still, you’d be much better off using a wide leather belt over a folded towel, than, say, a length of paracord. Assuming the same effect at the wound, the paracord will cause crush injury locally.

Yah, that’s one thing they definitely mention, never, but never ever use anything narrow for a tourniquet. Of course, it helps that a belt is a pretty standard part of most of our uniforms anyways.

[Guinastasia]

Rear fangs? I’m assuming that means in the back of the mouth, not in the actual rear. THAT would make for one bad ass snake.

(Many of you probably know by now how phobic I am when it comes to snakes, and there’s no way I’ll be able to look at any pictures)

[Acid_Lamp]

@Guinastasia

Rear fangs? I’m assuming that means in the back of the mouth, not in the actual rear. THAT would make for one **bad ass **snake.

(Many of you probably know by now how phobic I am when it comes to snakes, and there’s no way I’ll be able to look at any pictures)

I see what you did there.

[Raguleader]

@Guinastasia

Rear fangs? I’m assuming that means in the back of the mouth, not in the actual rear. THAT would make for one bad ass snake.

(Many of you probably know by now how phobic I am when it comes to snakes, and there’s no way I’ll be able to look at any pictures)

When the fangs are in the tail, that would not be entirely unlike a Thagomizer.

[Blake]

@outlierrn

AIUI, constriction bands are considered* useful for primarily neurotoxic envenomations such as Coral and Cobra snakes. Sequester the venom away from the CNS, transport to a hospital and initiate anti-venom therapy before releasing the band. OTOH, Rattlesnake** venom is primarily hemolytic (think of getting an injection of drano or battery acid), so constriction is contraindicated, concentrating the venom in one place will likely worsen the effect.

Not according to any reliable source I have ever sen, and it makes no sense any.

If a venom is haemolytic, then restricting it to one area can’t possibly cause more damage. The area immediately surrounding the bite will be filled with coagulated blood regardless of what you do.

Contrary to popular belief, venom doesn’t travel in the blood, it travels via the lymph vessels. So restricting it to one area won’t expose the blood in that area to any more venom,

Because it travels in the lymph, it will be dumped almost directly into the heart if it is not contained. So even if restricting it to one area did increase the damage to that area, it is still greatly preferable to the alternative. Worst case scenario if the venom is contained, they amputate the limb.

It’s kinda hard to amputate the heart.

[outlierrn]

@Blake

Not according to any reliable source I have ever sen, and it makes no sense any.

If a venom is haemolytic, then restricting it to one area can’t possibly cause more damage. The area immediately surrounding the bite will be filled with coagulated blood regardless of what you do.

Contrary to popular belief, venom doesn’t travel in the blood, it travels via the lymph vessels. So restricting it to one area won’t expose the blood in that area to any more venom,

Because it travels in the lymph, it will be dumped almost directly into the heart if it is not contained. So even if restricting it to one area did increase the damage to that area, it is still greatly preferable to the alternative. Worst case scenario if the venom is contained, they amputate the limb.

It’s kinda hard to amputate the heart.

Well, viper venom primarily kills by shock, not cardiac damage, and it anti-coagulates the blood as well as damaging surrounding tissues.

If I was 3 days from help I might use a contriction band, but we never use them on rattlesnake bites in my neck of the woods, and rattlers are all we have here.

I’m on the road and going from memory, but proper studies are lacking on this, AFAIK, if know of some I’d be interested to see them.

[AClockworkMelon]

Obligatory City Slickers soundbite.

[Loopus]

@Acid_Lamp

EDIT: Well I’ll be buggered. It turns out the primary fangs are in the front. People had thought they were located in the rear like venomous colubrids for years. Huh. At any rate, they are extremely small and you’d need to really try to get bitten.

We once found our dog carrying a snake in its mouth around the backyard, apparently proud to have caught something. On closer inspection, it was a still-living and very unhappy coral snake. Despite its best efforts, the snake didn’t manage to bite our dog, at least not badly enough to inject venom.

On the other hand, we had another dog who was bitten on two separate occasions by a copperhead, and didn’t even have the pleasure of catching it. We treated her not by sucking, but by taking her to the vet. She was fine each time.