So called Armenian genocide

Sorry, I have been gone for awhile - currently at war with Social Security regarding personal accounts.

“I maintain that it would be an irresponsible historian who took part in a committee which could reasonably be expected to include “historians” actively looking to disprove or minimize the importance of the Armenian genocide. Isn’t that basically what we’re talking about here?”

With respect, no. The offer (see post 121) was to have, as I described, the “mother of all commissions” to try and settle the issue, for once and for all. I would certainly expect such a grouping to include people with preconcieved opinions. Hell, we all have preconcieved opinions. I feel the only way to resolve this is to have a format that both sides agree on, open it up and let the chips fall where they may. In that respect I feel the Erdogan letter was a serious attempt to start this process.

And it was rejected.
Regarding my seemingly unusual desire not to include threads to history, this is why: there is a quote, by Winston Churchill, that seems to partly exonorate the Turkish side. Now, say I post this quote, then very valid reply should be:
(1). As so much historical “fact” on this issue seems to be fabricated, how can you be sure he said or wrote it?
(2). Even if he did say or write it, does that make it true? He could have been mislead by those with an agenda.
Therefore, I have not gone there, that is for true historians, not us chumps.

Daniel Pipes, I do not know the guy, and from what has been posted here that is probably a good thing. But the issue at hand was just a book review, let’s not detract from the book. I am lazy, I will not read it, a review is ok for me.

As to my quote “there are: laws in France and Switzerland that ban denial of the Genocide”, the link supplied in post #135 appears to support this statement. The fact that the student was not sanctioned implies he was arrested. Under what law was he then arrested?
Regards,
Michael

Ummm…that’s it? Where’s your explanation? All you do is repeat your “mother of all commissions” claim (ignoring my comment about why that won’t work - post #134), introduce another strawman (the “problem” with quotes), and drive-by the controversy concerning one of the few cites you’ve come up with.

As for the “against the law”, sanctions do not always include arrest. If you look at Measure’s second cite concerning French law (the Bernard Lewis incident - post #139), you’ll see that he was fined, not arrested. The denial in his case was tortious not criminal. You’ll also note that he was fined, in essence, for causing harm through malpractice of his profession.

Let’s assume Erdoğan believed he was making his offer in good faith. If true, that would be an important step forward for Turkey. However, it still falls well short of acknowledging the Armenian genocide.

Here’s a new question: Is presenting such an offer an important enough step that the Armenians should try to encourage Erdoğan (and accept the offer)? Or would accepting the offer constiute an implicit recognition of some ambiguity in the matter, and therefore weaken the Armenian position?

Dan

  1. Regarding the hypothetical Churchill quote:

Members of this board are not unfamiliar with evidence sifting. Still, mgauss is correct that certain types of evidence need careful evaluation, especially when they originate from demonstrably suspect sources.

  1. I tried to find a another review of McCarthy’s book and was unsuccessful. Bummer.

---- As to my quote “there are: laws in France and Switzerland that ban denial of the Genocide”, the link supplied in post #135 appears to support this statement. The fact that the student was not sanctioned implies he was arrested. Under what law was he then arrested?

Huh? Yeah, there are laws in France and Switzerland that ban denial of the Genocide, the 1940-45 Genocide. But not the Armenian Genocide, as my link -and quote- showed. I can’t find a reference to any “student” in either link. Link Link To repeat, “Throughout the numerous countries that condemn Turkey’s negation, only the denial of Jewish and Gypsy genocides have been punished by law. This is the case in France, Germany, Austria, Belgium and Luxembourg.”

  1. I have yet to see any evidence that Erdogan wants, “The Mother of All Commissions”: if this was the case he would advocate truly international representation. And, again, I have seen no substantive objections to The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission.

  2. More generally, it is often useful to include a brief quote from the linked website: it can help substantiate one’s assertions.

Morning tidbits:

First, it is not often I can take a shot at two birds with one stone:
http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/armenian/lewis.html

Secondly, this is from a Turkish newsreport and therefore should be treated as such, but it is so good I just have to use it:
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=43084
to quote in part:
“BELGIUM WITHDRAWS BILL ON SO-CALLED ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
The Belgium Senate Justice Commission yesterday withdrew a bill proposing fines and jail terms for people who deny the so-called Armenian genocide allegations. The Armenian lobby was shocked by the decision. ‘We finally decided to withdraw the proposal because we need to consider the issue more seriously,” Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt is reported to have said. The bill is now expected to be retuned to the Federal Assembly, which previously approved it and sent it to the Senate. Justice Minister Laurette Onkelix remarked that since a political institution should not evaluate historical events, the Senate has decided to leave the issue to the historians of both the Turkish and Armenian sides.”
Regards,
Michael

From the referenced article:

“One of the suits based itself on the French Law which regards the denial of the Jewish Shoah as a criminal offense, the three other suits were civil suits.”

He then goes on to detail the results of the three civil suits, but never mentions the criminal charge again. My assumption would be that the court distinguished between the Shoah and the Armenian Genocide and dismissed the case. If you have any evidence that the outcome was otherwise, please post it.

Zakalwe,

I think you are loosing sight of something here. A very well-known historian makes a speach, exercising what we in American call freedom of speech, and gets not one but four lawsuits thrown against him. The word is intimidation.

This is not right. I do not care whose “side” he is on, this is not right.

I am amazed that not one person on here has seen this.


By the way, excellent article in the editorial section of today’s (Wednesday) Wall Street Journal on Turkey. Nothing about the genocide, just a very good article into the mindset of Erdogan, where he is and his problems ahead. If only what he has was shared by others in the area, both within and outside Turkey.

Regards,
Michael

You are aware that France is not subject to the US Constitution, right?

And anyway, none of the suits were successful, so what on earth is your point? Any mook can file a civil lawsuit, even in France.

Sigh. I saw it. See post #139.

Bernard Lewis paid damages of about 1 franc, and was forced to put an advertisement in Le Monde (which would detail the ruling), the cost of which could not exceed 20,000 francs (=~$4000).

Now personally, I would prefer it if speech protections were stronger in the US, never mind Europe. At the same time, French law seems somewhat tangential to the question at hand, absent a side trip into the land of conspiracy theory.

So let’s reconstruct the arguments. Here is Lewis’s position (which, I’ll note, is a minority one among historians):

Some Turkish intellectuals disagree with this POV:

Emphasis added.


Those wary of the WSJ’s editorial page can note that the article referenced by mgauss is written by a former US Ambassador to Turkey, Morton Abramowitz.

It’s a decent article which details Turkey’s extensive political and security challenges.

With all due respect, so are you.

Today is a week from the “tomorrow” referred to above. Still haven’t seen it or a substantive response to my post #134.

As for the free speech issue and the WSJ editorial, Measure and Andros have answered in sufficent detail.

Zakalwe.

Finally, some sarcasm, post #134 and most recently. Thank you thank you thank you, I was starting to really wonder who all these duds were.

We have had some health problems, my wife had a major operation (make damn sure women get their annual exams, we got lucky), and I had read very little since last Wednesday or so. I do want to posit my thinking, you have seen most of it already but not how I got there, and hope to do so before my time here expires, which I think is sometime next week.

By the way, if the book review is not sufficient for you, buy the book.

And since I’m on the topic of books, an excellent one on the Balkans is “Balkan Ghosts”, by Kaplan. It’s in paperback I have read it a couple of times and take it with me whenever I travel. You will not be disappointed.

Regards, Michael

That’s all you had to say. Sorry to hear about your personal issues and I truly hope you and your wife are doing well.

As for the book: See, that’s not how it works here. You’re making the claim that 2.5 Million plus Muslims were killed, it’s up to you to prove it. You even admit that you haven’t read the book! What if, in Chapter 5, the author goes on at great length about the role of the Illuminati in inciting Aremenian unrest? Not to mention Chapter 7 where the aliens (the ones who helped the Egyptians build the pyramids) were responsible for most of the Armenian deaths. Now, I’m not saying that this book contains any such thing, just that you haven’t evaluated any of the information for yourself, yet you claim the book as an authority in support of your position. And you do so based on a two paragraph book review that doesn’t actually mention the number of Muslim dead.

Zakalwe,

Ok, this better? From the webside of the Turkish Embassy.
http://www.turkishembassy.org/governmentpolitics/issuesarmenian.htm

"Armenian losses were few in comparison to the over 2.5 million Muslim dead from the same period.

Reliable statistics demonstrate that slightly less than 600,000 Anatolian Armenians died during the war period of 1912-22. Armenians indeed suffered a terrible mortality. But one must likewise consider the number of dead Muslims and Jews. The statistics tell us that more than 2.5 million Anatolian Muslims also perished. Thus, the years 1912-1922 constitute a horrible period for humanity, not just for Armenians.

The numbers do not tell us the exact manner of death of the citizens of Anatolia, regardless of ethnicity, who were caught up in both an international war and an intercommunal struggle. Documents of the time list intercommunal violence, forced migration of all ethnic groups, disease, and, starvation as causes of death. Others died as a result of the same war-induced causes that ravaged all peoples during the period. "

Plus these sources if you want to explore further, (I haven’t read any of these either, mucho lazyo):
Armenian Atrocities and Terrorism ed. by the Assembly of Turkish American Associations (Assembly of Turkish American Associations, Washington, DC 1997);
Death and Exile: the Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 by Justin McCarthy (Darwin Press, Princeton, NJ 1995);
Muslims and Minorities, The Population of the Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire by Justin McCarthy (New York University Press, New York, 1983).
Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People by Michael Gunter (Greenwood Press, New York 1986);
The Armenian File: The Myth of Innocence Exposed by Kamuran Gürün (K. Rustem & Bro. and Weidenfeld & Nicolson Ltd., London 1985);
The Armenian Question 1914-1923 by Mim Kemal Öke (K. Rustem & Bro. London 1988);
The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story by Heath W. Lowry (Isis Press, Istanbul 1990);
The Talât Pasha Telegrams: Historical Fact or Armenian Fiction by Sinasi Orel and Süreyya Yuca (K. Rustem & Bro., London 1986);
The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians, by Heath W. Lowry (Vol. 3, no. 2, Political Communication and Persuasion, 1985); and
Proceedings of Symposium on Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and Turkey (1912-1926), (Bogazici University Publications, Istanbul, 1984).

Regards,
Michael

(posted from America or Belgium, certainly not France {for many reasons} nor Swizerland)

No, this is not better. You are attempting to show that the Turkish government is not minimizing the crimes perpetrated on the Armenian community by the Ottoman government. Backing up your numbers by using statements from the Turkish Embassy if anything shows a lack of documentation.

Saying that some other citations back up your numbers without having read any of those cites is also counterproductive. Without citing the relevant section of those works there is no way to determine if those cites have been taken out of context; are circular citations; etc.

Punoqllads.

Thank you for your input. I see it very differently.

Many people post links to support their position. I prefer not to post a lot, and certainly not links pertaining to history, as I have stated here before, they are just subject to too much challange. As I am sure you know, a lot of what is on the internet is just pure garbage, and especially on this issue there seems to be a lot of misinformation.

Therefore, when I post a link I try to keep it very current, and from a source that would suffer a great deal of embarassment if it were proven false. To wit:

1). I posted Erdogan’s letter, it was from the website in quesiton.

2). I posted the comments of the leader of the Turkish Parliment that were made in a recent speach in Washington (the france and switzerland issue). Again, I’m not gonna go much further to verify them, certainly others in the opposition have already done that and would have wasted the opportunity to trash him if in fact these statemnts were erronous.

3). I did, in violation of my own rules, post a newspaper article regarding Belgium. But I also identified it as suspect due to the source, but as I said it was just too good to pass up.

3). I posted a book review. Now, who would falsify a book review? Color me naive if you want but I just don’t see it. Again, if the book review is wrong, someone here should read the book and expose it.

4). I did NOT post Churchill’s letter. As I have said before, that is a matter for historians, not us chumps.

5). And regarding the 2.5 million, I referenced the Turkish Government’s own site. Note that way back in the beginning of this (post #88) I said in part:

“I think the turkish position is this:
Was there killing? Yes
Was there a lot of killing? Yes, minimum estimate seems to be 600,000.
Was it centrally ordered? No.
Was it an ugly time in the area? Yes, very much so.
Were others killed besides Armenians? Yes, up to 2.5 million Moslems.”

If I have deviated from this I apologize.

Regards,
Michael

… looks like we’re going to have to set aside the 2.5 million claim: the only support given is an unsubstantiated assertion by the Turkish embassy.

Pipe’s book review (2 paragraphs long) does not mention this figure: the mortality figure of 5.5 million covers a 100 year interval, as far as I can tell.

The method by which that figure is derived is unclear to me. The Encyclopedia of World History lists Turkey’s WWI fatalities at 325,000 (by comparison France bore 1,385,000 losses, GB 947,000 and the US 115,000), p.666. Pretty bad all around.

I assume those refer to battlefield casualties. On p. 752, the Encyclopedia characterizes the Armenian Genocide as follows:

This mainstream characterization is useful to keep in mind during our discussion of fringe theories.

FYI only: There is a forum on the Armenian Genocide at http://genocide.com/forum/ . I have not registered or even lurked there, however.

How the Turkish embassy derived their estimate is unclear to me. The Encyclopedia of World History lists Turkey’s WWI fatalities at…

All I am trying to do is point out that this part of the world has seen unimaginable buchery, and the Ottomans are not alone in this. Stuff has happenned over there that we just cannot comprehend. For example (and this is in Chrisitan Romania, not Turkey), the following is from the introduction to the book I have referenced before (and actually read several times) called Balkan Ghosts, by Robert Kaplan, in the introduction:

“On the night of January 22, 1941 the Legionnaires of the Archangel Michael - after singing Orthodox hymns, putting packets of Romanian soil around their necks, drinking each other’s blood, and anointing thenmselves with holy water - abjucted 200 men, women. and children from their homes. The Legionnaires packed their victimsinto trucks and drove them to the municipal slaghterhouse, a group of red brick buildings in teh southern part of Bucharest near the Dimbovista River. They made the victims, all Jews, strip naked in the freezing dark and get down on all fours on the conveyor ramp. Whining in terror, the Jews were driven through all the automated stages of slaughter. Blood gushing from decapitated and limbless torsos, the Legionnaires thrust each on a hook and stamped it: “fit for human comsumption.” The trunk of a five-year-old girl they hung upside down. “smeared with blood…like a calf,” according to an eyewitness the next morning.”

The first time I read this I thought I was going to vomit. How could people do this to each other? Now, this was 1941, not 1910, and the location is Romania, not what is present-day Turkey. But it is, to me, not at all out of the realm of possibility that the collapse of the Ottoman empire was accompanied by tremendous loss of life and relocation of population (now we call it “ethnic clensing”).

Another more modern example? Take Srebrenica. Anybody here remember that city? Anybody here know where it is? Look it up, at least 7,000 Muslims murdered while the UN looked on. Gee thanks, guys, I wonder what you would have done if it had been Muslims murdering Christians.

And as the Ottoman Empire collapsed over several decades how many Srebrenicas do you think there were? One? Twenty? Five hundred?

My point is just this: it was a time of total chaos. Anybody who thinks otherwise is, well, you supply the adjective.

Just for the record, Kaplan is of the opinion that it was indeed a government-controlled genocide of the Armenians. It is a very very good book, I highly recommend it.

Likewise, if you think the Ottomans were a people all nice and kind, talk to any Bulgarian.

Regards,
Michael

"How the Turkish embassy derived their estimate is unclear to me. "

Well, why don’t you ask them? Duh.
contact@turkishembassy.org
Regards,
Michael

Good day, everyone. Today I would like to back up and revisit a link that was posted here by someone else trying to support their position. I am going to post the entire article, because in relooking at it I saw something that has been missing, to my error, in the discussion. However, I am going to reorganize the article somewhat as to put the events mentioned in chronological order. In addition, I am going to include a snippet from Kocharian’s speech at the recent Council of Europe summit. You can find his entire speech at http://www.coe.int/t/dcr/summit/20050516_speech_kocharian_en.asp

The following is from http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav060305.shtml

{First the summary}

An initiative to promote a thaw in Armenian-Turkish relations appears to have fallen flat. The leaders of the two countries recently exchanged unprecedented diplomatic notes that explored rapprochement possibilities. But the letters did not achieve the desired effect of easing decades of mutual animosity.
The inability of Armenian President Robert Kocharian and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to meet on the sidelines of a Council of Europe summit in Warsaw in mid-May signaled the collapse of the rapprochement initiative.

{And a bit from later in the article}

As leaders of the two countries engaged in political maneuvering in late April and early May, speculation mounted that Kocharian and Erdogan might hold their first-ever face-to-face meeting during the Warsaw summit May 16-17. As it turned out, however, the parties did not even come close to achieving a breakthrough in Warsaw.

{Now, in chronological order, the events of the political maneuvering}

Erdogan wrote to Kocharian in April suggesting that the two countries, which have no diplomatic relations, set up a commission of historians that would look into the 1915 events and determine whether they were indeed a genocide. The unusual move came ahead of the April 24 worldwide ceremonies commemorating the 90th anniversary of the start of mass killings and deportations. It was welcomed by the United States and some European leaders.

{this is the link of the Erdogan letter, dated April: http://www.turkishembassy.org/PMtoArmenianPresident4_10_05.pdf
note: “welcomed by the United States and some European leaders”. There is no one here who cannot say that this is a correct thing to do. But, the Armenian side did not like the offer, and there are reasons for that, and they cannot decline outright, so they sent a counteroffer dated April 25, here is the link to that:
http://www.accc.org.uk/News/Teimourian/atomic_Plant/Erdoghan/Kocharians_letter_to_Mr_Erdogh/kocharians_letter_to_mr_erdogh.html
and the article here continues:}

But Kocharian effectively rejected the idea, contending that the Armenian genocide was already an established fact. At the same time, he called for the creation of an Armenian-Turkish inter-governmental commission that would discuss all issues of mutual concern, including the genocide controversy.

{Now, I think the writer has this wrong and is combining two events into one. Therefore, I will post this again, stripping out the genocide part, I think that came later:”}

But Kocharian effectively rejected the idea… At the same time, he called for the creation of an Armenian-Turkish inter-governmental commission that would discuss all issues of mutual concern, including the genocide controversy.

{Next comes the kicker, I had totally missed this:}

In response to Kocharian’s offer, Turkish officials suggested that the two contending proposals could be combined. “On the one hand, political relations could be established,” Erdogan said in a newspaper interview on April 29. “On the other hand, the work (on the historical archives) could continue.”

{Is there anything wrong with this? Who is flexible and who is not? Who seems to want to take a shot at finding the answer?
It is my contention that Erdogan is indeed a rare leader, one who is not afraid of boldness to try to solve old issues. It is not often that you will find a political leader willing to take these kind of risks, for at the same time he is in mucho hot water over changing Turkey’s position on Cyprus. The only leaders in this part of the world that I can quickly think of that in my opinion are close to him are Musharraf of Pakistan (for his efforts to get a rapprochement with India and solve the Kashmir problem) and to a much smaller extent Abbas and Sharon.
But Kocharian is sadly not of Erdogan’s stature, and the following was said at Council of Europe summit in Warsaw in May, I think the 16th :
http://www.coe.int/t/dcr/summit/20050516_speech_kocharian_en.asp

“Our efforts aimed at international recognition of the Armenian Genocide committed in the Ottoman Turkey are also explained by our belief in European values. This year we are commemorating the 90th year of those sad events, and we appreciate support of those states which have recognized and condemned that Genocide.”

Is this the way to win friends? It is nothing more than a slam of the door. Now who is sincere and who appears not? Please note that this is not spoken at a local political rally (where often anything is said, just look at Howard Dean), this was said on the big stage.
As summarized in this article I am examining:}

But Kocharian effectively rejected the idea, contending that the Armenian genocide was already an established fact.

{Erdogan then did what anyone would expect:}

Erdogan responded angrily to Kocharian’s statements at the summit. “Turkey cannot accept such baseless allegations,” he told a separate news conference in the Polish capital.
Erdogan reportedly refused to meet Kocharian because of the latter’s renewed calls during the summit for international recognition of the 1915-1923 slaughter of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide. Turkey vehemently denies that the mass killings constituted a genocide, insisting that Ottoman Armenians died in much smaller numbers and mainly as a result of civil strife.

{The Armenian position:}

The Armenian leadership, for its part, insists that the two nations must establish diplomatic relations, and that Ankara must lift the embargo against Armenia, before the two governments can tackle contentious issues.

{The Turkish position:}

Erdogan made clear afterward that a pre-condition for rapprochement between Yerevan and Ankara was a settlement between Armenia and Azerbaijan of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Turkey maintains an economic embargo against Armenia as part of an effort to provide diplomatic support for Azerbaijan during the search for a lasting Karabakh peace deal. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].
The Turkish prime minister also called on Armenia to halt efforts to secure international recognition for the 1915-23 events as genocide. The Turkish daily Zaman reported on May 31 that Ankara plans no further diplomatic initiatives on the Armenian front.

{here I apologize, but a turn needs to be made to the Nagorno-Karabakh issue. There are several sources you can access to read about it, and all conclude it is a real mess. There is now way to describe it in a hundred or even a thousand words, just trust me, “real mess” is correct. However, as you slog through the readings, you may get the feeling that Armenia feels threatened on all sides, and that even a small concession would be seen by enemies both real and imagined as a show of weakness. The love of different tribes for each other seems not unlike the love I illustrated in the Balkans earlier.
But, Turkey and Azerbaijan are allies, and while Turkey did stay out of the recent war between those two countries (thankfully, we can all agree and probably to Azerbaijan’s surprise), they cannot abandon Azerbaijan entirely and are requiring a resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh issue a pre-condition for rapprochement between the two countries.
By the way, if you really want to get into the guts of Nagorno-Karabakh, try this (it is very long but seems unbiased): http://www.usip.org/pubs/peaceworks/pwks25/pwks25.html If you read even a part of this you will most likely agree with me – it is indeed a real mess. By the way Kocharian is from Nagorno-Karabakh.
Finally, what remains of the article, with only one editorial comment from me:}

Armenia scoffed at the criticism of Turkish leaders, with Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian saying that policy makers in Ankara “naively” thought that Kocharian himself would request a meeting with Erdogan. Oskanian additionally accused the Turkish leadership of insincerity, alleging that Ankara never had any intention of altering its policy position.
“As a result of wrong Turkish calculations, the more or less favorable atmosphere created by the exchange of letters was spoiled,” Oskanian told Armenian state television on May 20. “We took a step backward in Turkish-Armenian relations because of the Turks.”
As Armenia and Turkey explored the rapprochement, the United States remained diplomatically inactive, according to an Armenian source privy to Turkish-Armenian dealings. US officials reportedly didn’t offer to broker direct discussions between Kocharian and Erdogan in Warsaw, dashing all hopes for such a meeting.
“The Bush administration has a long list of priorities when it comes to Turkey, and I’m afraid that Armenian issues are the bottom of that list,” David Phillips, a renowned scholar who chaired the Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC), said in a recent interview. TARC was a US-sponsored panel of retired diplomats and pundits that operated between 2001-2004 to promote reconciliation.
Perhaps TARC’s important accomplishment during was a study jointly commissioned by its Turkish and Armenian members from the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ), a New York-based human rights organization. The ICTJ concluded in a 2003 report that the massacres of Ottoman Armenians technically fit the definition of genocide set by a 1948 UN convention. However, the ICTJ report also stressed that the 1948 Convention’s provisions did not allow “retroactive application” to events that occurred prior to the treaty’s adoption. Thus, Armenians could not use the convention to claim any material compensation from modern-day Turkey. “

{then what would Armenia fear from the “mother of all commissions”?}

“At present, Turkey is facing strong pressure from the European Union as Ankara prepares to open accession talks with the bloc in October. France, for example, wants the genocide issue to be on the agenda of those talks, with President Jacques Chirac repeatedly urging Turkey to address its contentious past. [For background information see the Eurasia Insight archive].
The issue is also used by opponents of Turkish membership in the EU. Germany’s opposition Christian Democratic Union (CDU), which is well placed to defeat incumbent Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder’s Social Democrats in upcoming parliamentary elections, has sponsored a Bundestag resolution calling on Ankara to “take historic responsibility” for the 1915 massacres. “

Regads,
Michael
Posted from America or Belgium, certainly not France (for many reasons) or Switzerland.