So calling another poster a "mongoloid" is a-ok eh?

[MrDibble]

@samclem

Then get your hearing aid checked.

Yeah, this is why I come to ATMB, for the quality customer service…

Miller is trying to express the long-held view of the Administration of this board that it’s a slippery slope trying to make up lists of words/phrases that are actionable no matter in which forum they appear in on the Board.

But such a list already exists for the Pit. So this argument is bullshit.

The issue is still being discussed in the mod loop, BYW.

Was that a “shut up about it until we rule on it, peons”?

[Bone]

The discussion here does inform the discussion in the mod loop, to some extent.

@orcenio

I do find the hand-wringing on if a slur is racist or ablest quite amazing. This isn’t a case of mutually exclusivity where either A is true or B is true, but not both A and B.

If there be a rule, it should be clear, and transparent to apply. It’s not just this word, it’s how it interacts with the rest of the moderation and evaluating it for future usage as well as consistency in past practice. The distinction is relevant because the two take different paths with respect to moderation. Typically derogatory ablest usage has been permitted, while derogatory racist usage is more frowned on. Considering that insults are permitted in the Pit, it does make a difference the nature of the insult.

[John_Mace]

@Miller

Sorry for not replying here sooner. I saw this thread last night, after I’d had some friends over for dinner, and it didn’t seem like “half in the bag” was the best frame of mind in which to write a response.

Anyway. The subject is currently under discussion in the mod loop. While we haven’t reached a consensus yet, I thought I should, at least, explain why I didn’t moderate the comment when it was initially reported.

To start, I’m not really sold on the idea that the term is racist - at least, not the sort of racist that normally gets moderated around here. Certainly, it’s an artifact of a much more racist time, and makes reference to a theory of race that’s been thoroughly discredited, but the referent seems to be derived more from the idea, “People with this particular condition kind of look Asian,” and less, “People with this condition are stupid like Asian people.” Certainly, the former is very much not cool, but it feels (to my admittedly lily white ass) to be a different kind of animal from outright hate speech - more akin to “Oriental” or “Negro,” and less “chink” or “nigger.”

The argument that it’s insulting to people with Down Syndrome is much stronger, but also not something that we have a lot of precedent for moderating on the SDMB. I’ve always been hesitant about moderating ableist speech, because it seems like a genuine slippery slope to me. If we ban “mongoloid,” why do we allow “retard?” If we ban “retard,” why do we allow “moron?” And so forth. It’s a can of worms I’m not hugely anxious to open, because it seems the only way to resolve it is by creating arbitrary distinctions between effectively identical terms, and that’s a hard way to moderate a message board.

Thanks for the reply.

Firstly, I agree that the term “Mongoloid” (when used by itself) is akin to Oriental-- an anachronism, but not necessarily racist. It was the term in use for many years, like Negro or Colored. But it’s not used by itself in the context of referring to folks with Down Syndrome (see, I got the spelling right that time!!). There’s a reason no one has used that term in polite company for decades. It’s not just offensive to Down Syndrome folks, it’s offensive to East Asians. Downs Syndrome kids exhibit a whole host of phenotype distinctions, but all we care about is the “slanty eyes”.

Secondly, I don’t think we need to concern ourselves with slippery slopes as long as we are talking about racist terms. The slope ends when you exit the realm of racism, which is consistent with what the rules actually say (as I quote, above).

[MrDibble]

@Bone

Typically derogatory ablest usage has been permitted

Well, maybe that needs to change.

[orcenio]

@Bone

The distinction is relevant because the two take different paths with respect to moderation. Typically derogatory ablest usage has been permitted, while derogatory racist usage is more frowned on. Considering that insults are permitted in the Pit, it does make a difference the nature of the insult.

The doubt ‘gurgling mongoloid’ is racist, is what is amazing to me.

Yes, its ablest, but you don’t mod that; fine. This one is racist too. Great deliberation isn’t needed to figure that out.

[wonky]

@orcenio

The doubt ‘gurgling mongoloid’ is racist, is what is amazing to me.

Would moderators be okay with “gurgling Negro” or “gurgling Oriental”? Because it seems almost as if the current thought it that it makes it better if it’s referring to people with Down rather than making it worse. That’s completely counter-intuitive for me.

[Whiskey_Dickens]

@RivkahChaya

Would it be cool in the pit to call someone a “kike,” or say the n-word? That’s how bad Mongoloid is as a term for a person with Down Syndrome. As an insult, it’s beyond the pale. It’s like telling a Jew “Too bad the ovens missed your mother.” It’s so bad, I can’t think of anything that really compares.

ETA: Wait, maybe it’s like when you say of a non-Jew “He Jewed me Down.” Only to the nth power. No, that didn’t come out as well as I thought it would.

Well, that escalated quickly.

[DSYoungEsq]

I’m curious. Would the use of “gurgling mongoloid” have been moderated if used outside The Pit?

If so, and it’s not moderated IN The Pit, then I’m fine with that. After all, there’s a reason I’m almost never found in The Pit, or reading things in The Pit. I’d suggest that people who are sensitive to insulting language of the like, as for example Mr. Dibble is, should simply avoid reading or participating in that forum.

[Bone]

@DSYoungEsq

I’m curious. Would the use of “gurgling mongoloid” have been moderated if used outside The Pit?

A warning would almost certainly ensue in GD and Elections, though of course as always, context is critical.

[engineer_comp_geek]

@DSYoungEsq

I’m curious. Would the use of “gurgling mongoloid” have been moderated if used outside The Pit?

That would definitely get modded in GQ as well. I can’t imagine any use of it that would not get modded outside of the Pit.

[John_Mace]

@DSYoungEsq

I’m curious. Would the use of “gurgling mongoloid” have been moderated if used outside The Pit?

If so, and it’s not moderated IN The Pit, then I’m fine with that. After all, there’s a reason I’m almost never found in The Pit, or reading things in The Pit. I’d suggest that people who are sensitive to insulting language of the like, as for example Mr. Dibble is, should simply avoid reading or participating in that forum.

I’m astounded that question needs to be asked. Insults are not allowed outside the Pit. Was that phrase not intended as an insult in the post in question?

Perhaps a better question would be: Would that phrase be moderated if it were used to describe someone who is not a poster on this MB? “Trump is a gurgling mongoloid”. Would that be moderated?

Anyway, I think it’s important to distinguish between insults aimed at posters and insults aimed at non-posters. Apologies if that is what you meant. I don’t think it was obvious from just reading your post.

[engineer_comp_geek]

@John_Mace

Perhaps a better question would be: Would that phrase be moderated if it were used to describe someone who is not a poster on this MB? “Trump is a gurgling mongoloid”. Would that be moderated?

That would get moderated in GQ just because it’s political.

More to the point, if you managed to use “gurgling mongoloid” in a non-political sense in GQ, I would still moderate it.

[eschereal]

Really, any gratuitous slur-like epithets toward anyone, outside the Pit are out of bounds and should at least get a Note.

[kayaker]

@engineer_comp_geek

That would get moderated in GQ just because it’s political.

More to the point, if you managed to use “gurgling mongoloid” in a non-political sense in GQ, I would still moderate it.

“Has the phrase “gurgling mongoloid” ever been used in a political speech? I have a friend who claims that President Grant used the phrase in his inauguration address.”

Moderated in GQ?

[engineer_comp_geek]

@kayaker

“Has the phrase “gurgling mongoloid” ever been used in a political speech? I have a friend who claims that President Grant used the phrase in his inauguration address.”

Moderated in GQ?

Ok, you managed to come up with a way to use it in GQ that wouldn’t get moderated.

[Colibri]

@kayaker

Moderated in GQ?

I’m not sure I see the point of making up absurdly far-fetched examples.

[Riemann]

Perhaps this didn’t get much coverage in the US, but Ricky Gervais got into a lot of trouble a few years ago for use of the word “mong”. For context, “mong” in the UK has been used in a similar way to “retard” in the US, as derogatory slang for a generic fool. It’s a simple phoneme, and it’s possible that prior to the highly publicized Gervais affair, some younger people might not have been aware of its disreputable and offensive etymology; Gervais at first made a weak claim of the etymological fallacy, and that it now meant nothing more than “fool”. He eventually apologised, and I think in the UK it is quite definitely now beyond the pale.

Ricky Gervais criticised over Twitter 'mong jokes'

[kayaker]

@Colibri

I’m not sure I see the point of making up absurdly far-fetched examples.

Sorry, but I dislike absolutes (other than those concocted with the vodka).

[wonky]

@kayaker

Sorry, but I dislike absolutes (other than those concocted with the vodka).

You just made William Thomson very sad.

[Riemann]

@Colibri

I’m not sure I see the point of making up absurdly far-fetched examples.

What exactly is the Great Debates forum for then?