So does the board skew left?

Cato is a 'Libertarian blogs ’ now? News to me. Whats ammusing here is that you are completely immune to both debate and outside information. You persist in defining things in your own terms without anything to back them up…then when presented with another side (yeah, I know that the cite is ‘biased’…so would be whatever you quoted. Its called a ‘debate’…maybe you should try it sometime?) you do what many on this board do…dismiss the cite without actually bothers to look it over OR give any counter argument. ‘Oh, its a Libertarian Blog! Obviously biased bullshit, can just disreguard. Why? Well, that would be obvious if you weren’t so biased…I don’t really need to explain myself’.
Yeah…right. :rolleyes:

I about busted a gut on this part: “You’re right that this is an exercise in futily, but on MY part”…DeNile is not just in Egypt, friend.

Um…others actually bothered to try and give some REASONS why they thought MW was wealth redistrubution and, you know, even bothered to give a cite or two that supports the position. You’ve done…what exactly? Nada from what I can see except attempt to engage on an emotional level and spout a lot of BS. True, this isn’t GD so I suppose you can do what you want here, spout any emotionally charged crap you want, and not have to back any of it up…and more power too you. Want to be an ignorant lout (not because of your position on MW btw, but because of the assinine way you are defending it)? Not a problem…knock yourself out. Want to debate the position, do some give and take, perhaps learn a few things (trust me…there is a lot for you to learn)? Then start a thread in GD and see how well you do with the proposition that MW is NOT a wealth redistribution system.

And I think John just got tired of your nitpicking bullshit on the subject and decided to concede that to try and beat some sense into you the more interesting part. Obviously he failed miserably if you feel that this was some kind of victory for you over him about the gun thing. But maybe you are right and I’m wrong…only John can say and I think he’s (wisely) left the scene. Wiser than I am, thats for sure.

-XT

In re: anarchy and libertarianism.

Oddly enough, classic Marxist theology holds that the end result of communism would be a classless society, hence a society with no further struggle to endure. Such a society would be, in its end form, anarchy, having progressed beyond the need for governance.

“Ach, Karl, was du bist gesmokentoken?”

That website says, right on the header of the page

Individual LIberty, Limited Government, Free Markets and Peace

And you’re gonna pretend there’s no agenda there? The article is titled, “The Minimum Wage: Washingtons Perennial Myth”, for Christ’s sake.

I don’t get it - why are several of you folks in this thread trying to piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining? Seriously - what gives here? It’s not literally a web log, if that’s what you mean. I was of course using the word “blog” informally, to describe what it quite obviously a site that is espousing a so-called “free market” agenda.

Again, I’m not sure if you’re just fucking with me and being deliberately obtuse, or if you’re really not understanding this. This is getting stranger and stranger…

You’re kidding, right? That’s what you and John are doing, and I am the one calling YOU on it. YOU guys are defining terms your own way, pretending that it’s impartial, then acting like you don’t know what I’m talking about when I call you on it.

You really missed the whole point here. I suggest you go back and read the thread again. First of all, yes I did provide counter arguments - you just failed to read them. But that’s not even the point. The point is, in my opinion, “wealth redistribution” is a loaded phrase. I certainly don’t begrudge anyone the right to hold an opinion against the minimum-wage, but buzzwords are not valid arguments. It’s similar to saying “pro-choice” and “pro-life” instead of pro-abortion and anti-abortion. Not technically wrong, but emotionally loaded. It’s deliberately choosing language to emotionally charge it. When you call the MW “wealth redistribution”, it’s an attempt to make it sound like over-reaching government. You may very well believe that it is over-reaching government, but using buzzwords instead of cogent arguments is a cheap way to try to make your point.

THAT’S what we were discussing. That seems to have completely gone over your head, though. If you want to demonstrate that a phrase is not jargon, but is neutral, you don’t do so by quoting a biased source.

It would be like someone wanting to disprove elucidator’s previous statement that “Marxism… has a jargon that retains validity only within its context”, by quoting Marx. :smiley:

That’s an interesting theory, but if he was so “tired” of what I said (which, again, was not as major a point as you seem to think it was), why is that HE is the one who kept beating it to death, and insisted that I revisit it after I clearly declined to do so initially? No, that doesn’t make sense. Clearly, it stuck in his craw, and he only conceded because I was right.

If he thought it was too much of a nitpick (although I don’t really understand why one would think so), then the correct response would have been, “You’re correct that I contradicted myself; however I think that’s a nitpick”, rather than “I didn’t contradict myself.” Make sense?

Honestly, though - I don’t have much interest in discussing this any further with you. You seem like you just want to call me names, and I don’t see how that’s going to get us anywhere. You don’t even seem to grasp what the argument is about here. Just judging from your coarse posting style, it’s hard for me to take your criticism seriously.

I’m going to contradict myself. I’ve compeltely lost interest in debating with cat, mainly because she (I’m assuming “she” is right) seems to think sreaming and ranting is the same as debating. But she also simply ignores questions posed to her that she can’t answer without undermining her whole arugment, such as it is.

I’d still like to hear an answer from elucidator about the questions I asked in post #410.

Who said they didn’t have an agenda? I said they weren’t a Libertarian Blog site. Only a moron or someone trying to be funny would call Cato a Libertarian Blog site…and somehow I don’t think you were trying to be funny. Were you?

Perhaps if you tried responding with something a bit better than some bullshit about the site being a Libertarian Blog…like, er, I don’t know…some facts of your own? Some counter information? Something? Or, perhaps you figure that waving your hands and saying the cite (which I acknowledged early on was ‘biased’ and was only using to illustrate a point…a point you failed to grasp obviously) works for you.

Damn…I didn’t realize that John Mace made up the whole ‘Minimum Wage is a wealth re-distribution system’ thing. And I get partial credit too? Wow. BTW…to ‘call’ someone on something means you need to actually present something substantial TOO call them on it. You must have just skipped over that part. I know, I know…you have this inate knowledge that we are supposed to just take for granted, and we (or at least I) am simply being stuborn about it. Sheesh.

So, your problem is that its a ‘buzzword’ and a ‘loaded phrase’. Even though it actually describes the system and its mechanism…your problem is with the phrasing? You don’t like the way it SOUNDS? Well…ok. How about we call it something along the lines of ‘a system whereby wage levels are set and fixed above the actual demand for the price of said labor, paid for by higher pricing of goods and services, there by dispersing the private assets of the public from those who have money to those who do not for the purposes of social engineering’. A bit cumbersome of course but it doesn’t use any buzzwords or ‘loaded phrases’, yes?

Well good, because the feeling is pretty much mutual…I find you clueless on this subject and gods know why I bothered replying. Lets agree to go our separate ways on this and hope not to bump into each other again, shall we? Not that I’ve seen you before this so I don’t think its going to be much of a problem.

-XT

Indeed.

Your interest is flattering, as I am innocent of any suspicion that you are probing for a weakness.

All human study is interesting, I have long held a fascination with theology that is unhinged of any religious convictions. Sociology is interesting, but I am leery of granting any licsense to practice sociology. I am told that entirely reasonable people regard economics as a science. I accept that implausibility with humility, as I figure that no one can honestly claim to understand a subject that bores them to tears.

Our talent for rational systems and analysis is our genius, our species is a one-trick pony, and that’s the trick. When it comes to hammers, steam engines and Ipods, we are on solid ground, in our home element, we will invariably suceed.

But rational systems have their limitations. Political Science is a good to middling example of those limitations. Hume, Locke and Rosseau might be splendid fellows, but thier ruminations have fuck-all to do with politics as it is conducted by actual people. Lyndon Johnson is politics. Hitler is politics. MLK is politics. If Hume, Locke or Rosseau could gaze upon politics as she is, they would have been reduced to gibbering conniptions.

(Let me stress that I don’t mean to denigrate the study of history as a source of advancement and enlightenment, I find more truth in one book by Barbara Tuchman than in any ten political platforms.)

Political systems will evolve, but organicly. Like Marxism, libertarianism constructs a rational system on the presumption that it will be accepted by rational monkeys. Which might actually work, if there were any. But outside of you and I, Johnny, there is scant evidence thereof.

Good, because I wasn’t. Not this time.

<snip>

True, but clearly political system are influenced by theoretical thinkers. Our own country bears ample witness to that, espeicially at it’s founding.

At any rate, my problem with pure Libertarianism is that it assumes (incorectly) that people desire freedom above all else, when it’s clear that people will jetison their support for freedom when they perceive that their own physical security is threatened.

But thanks for the clarification. I see where you are coming from now.

Perhaps. I’m more inclined to believe that our evolution invokes observers, who comment upon the advancements in our thinking under the mistaken assumption that they are originating them.

It becomes almost a mind/body issue, the question of origin: are you the invisible box, or the mime trapped inside?

That sounds a lot like FA Hayek’s theory of spontaneous order, except that TSO works only when people have freedom of volition (as with language). I’m assuming you didn’t mean that social evolution exists in the same sense as biological evolution. Right?

Oh, my god! You mean like Walden? Run for your lives!

I don’t know what your point is supposed to be. Some nitpick about the language I used, I’m guessing. It’s obviously a site devoted to espousing a free market agenda. You seem more interested in name-calling and semantics than with actually having a discussion. Good bye.

p.s. - you seem angry.

Not at all old boy (or girl…whichever you are). I don’t generally get angry at folks on a message board, even ones who seem to be trying to be irritating. Tootles!

-XT

That’s very amusing that you would accume me of trying to be irritating. I don’t know you, but so far you seem to be the undisputed champion in that realm. :wally

accuse, that is.

Are you willing to describe how you think minimum wage laws are not attempts at wealth redistribution, or are we past that point?

Regards,
Shodan

Well first, that’s what I have been doing, so I’m not sure what you mean by “am I willing?” Second, as to whether I want to continue, I guess that depends on whether we can do this without rancor, posturing, and arrogance, whether people are going to feign ignorance as to the obvious meaning of words and phrases, and whether people are more interested in harping on trivialities and name-calling rather than honestly addressing points.

The problem with such discussions is that Libertarianism appears to be set up as unfalsifyable. You say, “X will happen in a free market, so we don’t need to have regulations for X”. But if I give examples of societies where X doesn’t happen, they are immediately dismissed because “it’s not a free market”. Since a utopian Libertarian society has never existed, it’s impossible (if real-world examples are disallowed) to prove or disprove the tenets of Libertarianism. Yet they continue to be held as immutable truths by Libertarians. How does one have a discussion about that?

So why isn’t a minimum-wage law an attempt at “wealth redistribution”? The phrase “weath redistribution” implies a taking of money by government, and a giving of that money to other citizens. That’s most certainly an accurate description of what occured in communist Russia and China, but it’s a little heavy-handed to describe minimum-wage laws. I wouldn’t object to classifying welfare as such, either. But minimum-wage? Nah.

What does a minimum-wage law do? It prevents ruthless employers from abusing workers. Assuming that the MW is not excessively high (which it most certainly is not in the U.S.), an employee is EVERY BIT ENTITLED to the money that he/she earns. They are not being handed the money; they are working for it. See, Libertarians make the assumption that there is some natural rate of pay to which “the market” will gravitate, and that employees are not entitled to anything above this “natural” rate, unless they negotiate for it. But I submit that, in the real world, conditions will naturally gravitate to “whatever people can get away with”. This is human nature. And unfortunately, what people can get away with is often unacceptable from a humanitarian point of view.

Now, you can argue that the employer could pay workers less if not for the law, and that therefore the law is taking money from them, but I find such arguments to be specious. If we disallowed any law that resulted in business owners making less money, the public good would be in serious jeopardy. And here’s where the discussion is going to break down, because I will give an example, and you will dismiss it because it’s not precisely the same situation as minimum-wage. But I’ll give it anyway: Public businesses are required to have fire exits. Sometimes fire exits result in considerable extra expense for the business. Given the horrific things that can happen when a crowded building with inadequate exits catches fire, the greater public good is served by having these laws. Is the government unfairly taking money away from business owners? I don’t believe so. Regulatory laws certainly may have the effect of reducing profits for businesses, but I think it’s unfair to characterize this as the government “taking” their money.

The Libertarian argument seems to be that the law is unfair because it forces employers to do something that they may not have to do if they were completely unfettered. But in the real world, it is IMPOSSIBLE for citizens to be completely unfettered. And here again is where the discussion is going to break down, because any example I use is going to be immediately sneered at because it’s not coming from a “free market” (which is a hypothetical construct that has never existed in the real world). If I give examples of ruthless employers who have taken advantage of workers in sweat shops, you will try to dismiss my examples: “Oh, THAT was in the past”, or “THAT wasn’t a free country like ours.” But IMO such dismissals miss the point, which is that it’s HUMAN NATURE that the strong will prey on the weak.

The failing of the Libertarian ideal is that it makes 2 erroneous assumptions: (1) That all people will be naturally benevolent, and that nobody will ever take unfair advantage of anyone else, and (2) That all citizens have unlimited choices and opportunities. Libertarianism would work like a charm if we had 100% employment and anyone could just go down the road and get a new job at a moment’s notice. But that’s not the case in the real world. People have found themselves in situations where they had to work to survive, and did have limited options, and were forced to accept brutal and dehumanising conditions of employment. In such situations, the employee is not freely consenting to the conditions, but is doing so under duress, and I believe this DOES occur in the real world, and COULD occur in the U.S., were we to allow businesses to operate completely unfettered.

I guess what it comes down to is whether an employee is always “freely” accepting the conditions of employment. And when you get down to the bottom rung of society (and those are the ones who will be affected by MW laws), I don’t believe such is always the case. I suspect you would agree with me that laws against fraud are not “wealth redistribution”, wouldn’t you? - even though such laws result in the potential purpetrator having less money, and the potential victim having more money. But what’s the difference? The difference is that with fraud, one person deceived the other, and therefore the other person wasn’t freely entering into the agreement. Well it’s my belief that an employee who accepts a job for extremely low wages, in the real world, is often not freely entering into the agreement either.

Is that enough description of my position for you? :wink:

You know, a thought occurred to me. Maybe we’d get further if you would explain why it IS wealth redistribution. After all, you’re the one making the positive claim.

And don’t just quote or link to websites, please.