Hey folks,
Sorry it took me a bit to reply to this. I appreciate all the advice! The thread blew up more than I expected, so I needed to find some time to really sit down and read & process it.
Generally, it all seems straightforward enough… find an actual clothing store, be it Macy’s or Nordstrom or similar, ask them for measurements and fitting advice, and check out their recommendations while there. Take those measurements home with me and apply them elsewhere as needed, such as Lands’ End (I’d heard of them but never used them, will try it!). Stitchfix seems really interesting too.
I live in a rural area, and don’t have access to fancier stores like Jos A. Bank… the closest one is like 700+ miles away. That’s OK though, I’d rather not get on the “clothing escalator” anyway; I don’t want to end up dressing nicer and nicer (and more and more expensively) over time, just find a “good enough” approach to be, uh, invisibly professional, I guess.
I also hear the advice on not getting the absolutely cheapest thing I can find. That’s fine, I’ll pay a little more for something of higher quality that will hopefully last.
I’m a sucker for button-up (or down — never knew the difference!) shirts over polos, personally, just because polos have a bit of a golf/yacht/tiki nazi vibe in these parts, lol.
Heh, that’s exactly what I’m trying to target – “scruffy with buttons”, like “here’s a guy who spent five minutes (instead of one) getting dressed this morning”, not “this is our future CEO”.
On the spectrum of “wifebeater with holes → jeans and t-shirt → jeans and a shirt → wedding suit → wedding suit for your wedding → rich people uniforms I don’t have the vocabulary for → James Bond”, I’m just trying to hit the 30-40% mark, barely above a t-shirt, but not by much.
Exactly. Sorry I neglected to mention this earlier. We’re in tech, so it’s pretty casual to begin with, and we’re small tech — like a dozen or so people. It’s pretty low-key all around.
I’m sure I could actually just show up in shorts and a t-shirt and no one would even say anything, I just… don’t want to 
The goal is more just to blend in than to stand out or impress… while I don’t necessarily want to look like I just escaped from Walmart, I don’t need to be ostentatiously dressed either.
Anything with button is already “dressing up” for me (and probably for them). Anything with buttons and no wrinkles… gee, that’s formalwear!
That’s a great point, and kinda at the heart of what I’m trying to figure out — not necessarily what makes clothes luxurious, just well-fitted and comfortable enough. If it can help hide my six- one-pack abs, even better… but that’s a side bonus.
So what initially prompted this thread was that I had ordered and tried on some “L” shirts from different brands. The Patagonia ones (a company I like to support) unfortunately fit very, very awkwardly. Some other brands fit OK, but still not super comfortably. Then by chance someone gave me a Uniqlo shirt as a gift (a Japanese brand)… and for the very first time in my life, I experienced a well-fitting shirt. It felt extremely comfortable and natural right off the bat. I ordered a few more L shirts from them, and all had a very similar, very comfortable and almost flattering, fit.
So now I’m trying to figure out — both quantitatively in terms of measurements & body shape and stylistically in terms of the “cut”/fit of the shirts — how they are different than other brands, and how I can find more shirts like them.
(I guess I should mention that I am East Asian, which probably impacts body proportions… that’s maybe part of why the Japanese stuff fits me so much better right off the bat than the American brands? Though it’s confusing, because many sources say that we often have shorter torsos…
I don’t know how I lived my entire life without knowing those existed, but I got some with my last experimental batch of clothes… and they indeed DO fit a lot better, at least length-wise. They are still not as out-of-the-box comfortable as the Uniqlo ones in other parts, like across the chest or waist areas, but at least they finally feel suitable in length.
Lol, too true. I’ll see if I can round up some willing victims to accompany me…
And yes, it’s definitely a cultural thing. I’m lucky to both be in tech and in rural Oregon, neither of which is a particularly fashion-concerned place.
I’m not joking with I say “anything with buttons” is already dressing up, so I’m not too concerned.
How… do you (or any man) learn this stuff? I never knew there was more than one type of “suit”. I mean that seriously, heh. It feels like a completely alien world, like “the hounds are ready for your evening hunt, m’lord” alien.
I hear ya. Definitely was anti-buttons (and up) for most of my life. Chilled out a bit in mid-age. I don’t need my clothing to make a statement; I just want it to be… comfortable and semi-presentable now.
There’s a lot I don’t like about the tech industry, but one thing I am grateful for: In my roles (development/coding stuff), people easily get past the first impressions and small-talk within minutes if not seconds. Most of the customers I meet with will show up in t-shirts (if they bother to turn on the webcam at all), barely say hi, and then jump straight into jargon, and from then on it’s more or less a meritocracy — either you know your stuff or you don’t. Clothes are just a fun accessory, not anything anyone (including my bosses and customers) are ever concerned about.
It’d be very different in sales or marketing (and frankly terrifying). Even if I dressed to the 9s, my very personality would probably cost us all our major clients
Really? I could only find studies like this one.
statistical analysis of 12 indices of the human body of 63452 Chinese people aged from 18 to 97 years old, and the morphological characteristics of Chinese people at present were obtained. Studies have found that overall body type of Chinese people are generally long torso, mid-shoulder, mid-pelvic, and mid-leg type.
Obviously there are a variety of Asian morphologies, but as a short man with a relatively long torso and short legs, I also had great luck with Uniqlo, especially when in Japan. One of the few times it was easy for me to find a selection of shirts and pants (really pants) that fit right off the rack!
Button down shirts that fit properly don’t come in L, M, S, etc., but should be labeled with sleeve length and collar size. And you do want shirts that fit right. You don’t want a shirt that has a comfortable collar size but balloons out above your pants because it’s too loose. Nor a shirt that fits right around your shoulders and torso, but has a painfully tight collar. It doesn’t sound like you’ll need to wear a tie, but a shirt collar should fit so that if you needed to button the top button and wear a tie, it would still be comfortable.
You might need to go to a legacy department store where they’ll have someone who can measure you. I don’t wear or buy button down shirts very often, and I always have to get measured because I don’t remember my size from one time to the next.
I couldn’t find someone to measure me at Nordstrom’s a few months ago. Not at Men’s Wearhouse either. I could make an appointment to get measured. For a weekday, during business hours. I got the feeling they are catering to retirees only.
There were salespeople. But not with tape measures or the ability to use them.
Damn. I didn’t realize the decay had gone that far.
@Reply did you get a chance to check out any of Tan France’s stuff? He goes over a lot about how stuff should fit and how to dress for your body type. One thing that I saw in the video I linked to (which is not a Queer Eye clip) is that he tells a guy that his shoulder seams should be at the end of his shoulder bone and not down his arm. I’ve seen him repeat that in every season of Queer Eye. Now, when dudes try on shirts for him they don’t always hit right, but he advises them to have the shirts tailored. I think it’s an “easy” fix - pulling in the pleat behind the neck.
Well, if you’ve ever attended a formal wedding or gone to a high school prom, surely you’re aware of a “tuxedo”? (Technically speaking, the term tuxedo only refers to the dinner jacket portion of what is more properly referred to as “Black Tie.”) Most people would consider a “tux” to be the epitome of formal wear (and it is more formal than a [lounge] suit), but technically and historically speaking it is actually semiformal.
But beyond that, I learned from my service as an officer in the U.S. Navy. There is a corresponding U.S. Navy equivalent to all of western semiformal and formal wear, and it comes in winter (dress blues) and summer versions (dress whites).
I had to keep straight Service Dress Blues and Service Dress Whites, which were equivalent to a [lounge] suit and considered normal office wear. (There were also working uniforms that were more suitable for shipboard work, and Summer Whites which were more formal than khakis but not as formal as dress whites.)
Then there was the whole panoply of still more formal wear, such as Dinner Dress Blues/Dinner Dress Whites (equivalent to civilian Black Tie), and Formal Dress (equivalent to civilian White Tie).
(Last but not least, there are ceremonial uniforms, which for senior officers include swords.)
In short, when I later heard the terms “Black Tie,” “White Tie,” etc. I immediately saw the connection with the various Navy dress uniforms I was already familiar with.
It’s weird that you would seem to take pride in presenting yourself as a slob and a jerk in a professional environment. Don’t underestimate how people perceive you.
Having a mentality of “fuck you clothes don’t matter” is childish and unprofessional. You are in a work environment so your choice of clothing should confirm to the culture of your company, your clients, and your own personal sense of style. You don’t need to “make a statement” but it should be intentional.
You probably don’t want to just fade into the background either. One look I hate is the “Deloitte casual Friday” style of ill-fitting blue or white dress shirt and black bit too baggy dress pants. It’s generic and makes you look like a guy who had to go on a message board to ask how to dress in an office.
Meh.
The culture of most interest is more granular: it is the role within the company. Have you read anything that suggests that @Reply was ever dressed other than within the norms of the costuming for IT within their company?
I watched the video and it’s even more obnoxious than the post, which I wouldn’t have thought possible.
As I recall, dress shirts used to be either “full cut/traditional” or “tailored/fitted” fit. As a slim young man, the full cut ones would “balloon” as you say.
Either of them may have had a tailor on staff - likely not at all hours - who could do measurements.
I think this thread is going well beyond what the OP is asking (which is fine.)
I’d just go to a page like this one, pick a shirt, see how it fits when it comes and, if you like it, buy a couple more in that size.
I merely suggest polos because to me they are a slightly more “formal/professional/presentable” version of the t-shirt. As well as easy care. But pick something that appeals to you and just stick with that. It is fine for people to put a lot of care into stle and what they wear. It is also fine for people to just care enough to appear presentable and unobjectionable.
You don’t need a tailor for the shirt measurements. Any salesperson should be able to do this. You can also do this at home, though you probably need someone else to measure you.
About 15 years ago, the local Macy’s got to the stage where the salespeople couldn’t do measurements. Mens Wearhouse and Jos A Bank still did. I have only bought one suit in the last 10 years, and it was at a local men’s shop about six years ago. I went into that men’s shop recently and it’s quite a different place now. Suits in colors I’d never imagine. Stuff you’d expect to see at a high school prom. I don’t know where the lawyers and bankers who are still wearing suits are shopping now.
Really? I went to Macy’s a few months ago to buy a suit after having lost weight. The salesman sized me for a suit and shirt.
And as I was shopping for that suit and dress shirts, I was surprised at how few there were both at Macy’s and even Nordstrom (which had some, but a much smaller selection than I remember).
I was merely commenting on what resources might be available. (Personally, I don’t think the OP needs neck and sleeve measurements for what he describes, but part of the conversation went in that direction.)
40 years ago when I BRIEFLY worked in Carson’s’ menswear, they expected me to do measurements for alterations. So I did. Doesn’t mean I was at all competent at it! 
And there is absolutely nothing keeping the OP from buying a tape measure and measuring his own neck and sleeve if he wishes. But, I reiterate, that nothing the OP has posted suggests (to me) a need for such measurements. Maybe 5-6 years ago, I bought 6 or so new dress shirts (used to wear a white shirt to work daily.) With covid and subsequent work at home, I’ll never wear them out. But for anything other than dress shirts, I am perfectly fine with L or XL and R or T (depending on the brand.)
Rather than trying to find a shop with someone competent to measure him (which the OP describes as challenging), I strongly suspect it wou dbe “good enough” for him to do his best estimate at a mail order shirt and adjust from there.
I’ve never heard of the brand the OP says he likes (and haven’t looked then up), but if he like how that brand fits, I wonder why he wishes to change. Unless they only offer super casual wear…
Ryan Gosling’s character is meant to be obnoxious in that scene (from Crazy, Stupid, Love).
I’m sorry if you found my post “obnoxious” but I was trying to impart some professional advice to @Reply. It was not meant to be insulting and perhaps came out a bit harsher than I intended.
I know @Reply is probably trying to be self-deprecating, but why put it out there that your “very personality would probably cost us clients”?
My point is @Reply sounds like he wants to make a good impression but may be having trouble figuring out where to land between Steve Carell’s character in the clip and Harvey Specter in Suits.
It can actually get pretty complicated.
- You have the shirt sizing (neck and sleave length).
- The “fit” (slim, tall, traditional, etc) based on your body type and which is often non-standard across stores. Because you don’t want your shirt blousing out like a muffin top or being too tight where it pulls on the buttons.
- There’s the collar style - button down collars are more casual but those shirts are often in S/M/L sizes (which is ok).
- Probably want to stay away from cufflinks at this point.
The other point I was trying to make is that just because the OP may be familiar with traditional “business casual” dress, that doesn’t mean he needs to dress in a generic boring manner. Particularly if he is looking to make a good impression. Don’t be afraid to look for a bit of color or subtle patterns.
I don’t think it’s very easy to measure sleeve length on yourself. Neck size, yes but not sleeve length.
Perhaps I read more into it than was intended. My apologies, regardless.
Sounds like @Reply has been in his business for a long time and has a general feel for the dress culture.
What’s different here for him is the European connection. In my limited experience, Europeans tend to have more formal dress standards than North Americans, so it doesn’t hurt to dress up a bit for the first encounters, until he have a good feel for what the culture is in this situation.
(Says Piper, who has four suits, a couple of jackets and slacks, and innumerable ties. For me, dressing up for work is wearing court robes and tabs. 
I’m going to a couple of law-related events this weekend and “business attire” is required. None of that vague “business casual” stuff. )