So I have prostate cancer

Yes, really.

If you spend any time in this awful old world looking after family and friends, have any experience with life and sickness and death, you will see every kind of bad behavior in That Time Of Crisis.

You will also see heroes and steadfast, patient, loving, compassionate, kind people. And amazingly enough, you can’t tell who’s going to be there and who’s going to book until they’re staring these issues in the face.

This also includes medical professionals who should know and act better and don’t … and those who are truly angels walking this earth to care for others.

If you have been spared the worst of this, you’re blessed.

I could tell you some horror stories … but all you can do is write those not so good people off, let them go, try to forgive them, put yourself out of reach of any further harm from what they say, what they do, and what they don’t do. And focus on the rest.

Squeegee, you’re getting good advice from good folks and you sound like you have the right attitude going on, which is powerful. When the chips are down, Dopers are THERE. IANAD but I have known quite a few men with prostate cancer and the outcomes are all over the place. Self-contained is good news. There’s been a lot of advances in medicine, including meds and surgical techniques. It’s still a crapshoot because outcomes vary and nothing can be promised … but your chances by and large are better than they’ve ever been.

There is life, good life after cancer. There is good life living WITH cancer, if that’s how it plays out. Ain’t over 'til it’s over.

Your ex-gf is an ass and as stinky as this is, she’s doing you a favor by letting you know early on what she’s really all about. “Better to be alone than to wish you were.”

I have learned lately that most people dealing with cancer are offended by lines like “kicking cancer’s ass” so I will try to refrain from being rude. (I truly did not know and I apologize to everyone I might have ever annoyed by that. I did mean the best.) We’re with you on your journey and I hope we can assist you.

your humble TubaDiva

Great post! I* liked* my cancer having it’s tiny ass kicked.

Some people, still in this day and age, act like “The cancer” is catching. Really.

You really do learn who your friends are. My cousin and I were close, but when she heard “cancer” it’s like I dropped off the face of the earth for her. My ordeal was about seven months, and I never saw her or got a call. She did send me a picture her kid drew. I recovered, but that relationship never did. It makes me so sad. On the other hand, I hadn’t had contact with my godmother (religion no longer involved, just the relationship) for about ten years, but I let her know when my grandmother died which was about four months before my diagnosis. We wrote letters every other week or so as she didn’t do email, although she gave me her husband’s email address and he and I emailed quite a bit. When she heard I had cancer and what all was going on, she sent a card or letter every three days or so. It meant so much to me that she did that, and it helped me get through some rough times. My mom occasionally wrote her, but I wasn’t able to until a few months later. However, I received an email from her husband that she’d had a stroke. She never regained consciousness and I never got to thank her. She died a few months later. I hope that wherever she is, she knows how much I treasure what she did.

The weird nurse I used to date back in the day was convinced it would eventually be shown that cancer was contagious. “Mark my words,” she would say. That was just one of many weird thoughts of hers.

Even if cancer isn’t catching, the emotional & logistical burden certainly is. As I said above, each of us is trapped in our body and are stuck going where it takes us. Everybody else around us has an opt-out on that journey.

Not that they should exercise the opt-out, but that they can. And many people will. The less strongly connected they are (e.g. compare squeegee’s & his GF with Broomstick & her husband) the easier it is for that burden to overwhelm the strength of the ties.

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Yesterday’s xkcd is on point for all of us: xkcd: Seven Years

What a coincidence! My daily dose of straight dope, just after returning from the hospital where I made an appointment for a radical prostatectomy.

I’ve had an elevated PSA value since at least 2010, when I started measuring it regularly (3.5 back then), though in 2001 it was only 0.9. It rose slowly but steadily to around 7.5 by then end of 2014, when I had the first biopsy with 58 samples. 4 had cancer, 3 on one side and one on the other. Gleason 3+3.

I’ve been studying this (I’m a physicist by training) since 2010. Once at a conference, the head of a university urology department thought I must be some physician he hadn’t yet met. :slight_smile: Here is my condensed advice. I am not a physician, but my advice is well within the wide range of advice offered by serious physicians.

Measure the PSA starting at 35 years. As long as it is less than 2, measure it yearly. If it is between 2 and 4, measure it every 6 months; if between 4 and 10, every 3 months. Have a biopsy done if it is more than 4 for two successive measurements. If there is no cancer, continue as before. If there is cancer, measure it every three months and have a biopsy annually. (Depending on where you live, health insurance might pay for the PSA test (about $30), at least if you have cancer. If you are not living somewhere where biopsy and treatment are covered by insurance, you should be.)

Exception: If it is more than 10 on the first measurement, measure it again after 6 weeks. If it is above 10, have a biopsy. If not, see above.

Important: Measure the PSA in the same lab every time; there is considerable variation. What is important is not so much the absolute value but rather how it changes (unless the value is high, in which case the variation doesn’t matter as much). Measure it under the same conditions every time. It is usually measured from blood drawn in the morning. For three full days and 4 nights, avoid strain on the prostate. So, if the blood is taken Tuesday morning, Friday night is the last time you can live it up. The main sources of strain are orgasm and pressure (e.g. from riding a bike, horse, etc) and any sort of athletic activity which might involve indirect blows to the prostate.

When should you have treatment? If ANY of the following are true, you should have treatment: 1) Gleason score is more than 6, 2) a tumor is palpable in a digital exam (note: that is not the opposite of analog, but rather a finger in the rectum) or visible via transrectal sonography AND the biopsy shows cancer in it (otherwise you might need treatment for a benign tumor), 3) the PSA value is above 10 in two measurements 3 months apart. The more criteria are fulfilled, the more urgent it is. You always have at least a month to plan things, consider your options, etc (except if you did no monitoring at all and one day awake with blood in the urine due to prostate cancer, which might have already spread).

Alternatively, if the Gleason score is less than 7, tumor is visible at most in MRI (not sonography, digitally, etc), and the PSA is less than 10, you are probably safe without treatment. You can have it if you want, of course, but chances are it is not necessary, at least for now. It is now known that most men die with prostate cancer, but not of it. They would be in this category. However, those for whom it is a problem are also in this category—at the beginning. Most in this category will stay in it, but not all. If you monitor, you can almost always cure it—with greater or lesser side effects, depending on how long you wait). If you don’t, remember that prostate cancer is one of the leading causes of death.

Prostate cancer is different from other cancers for three main reasons. First, it usually needs no treatment. With almost all other cancers, you will die in much less time than your remaining life expectancy if nothing is done. Second, the treatment often has long-term side effects: incontinence (nerves and muscles damaged by treatment), impotence (nerves damaged), infertility (because of impotence and/or the lack of semen—at least via ejaculation; sperm can still be extracted from the testicles for in-vitro fertilization), lack of ejaculation (if the prostate is destroyed or removed during treatment), colon problems (tissue damaged during treatment). Many cancer treatments have no serious long-term side effects. This combination is the real problem. If it were only the question whether it will eventually cause problems or not, one could just treat it to be on the safe side—except for the side effects, which will probably occur in more cases than those which would have eventually needed treatment. If it were only the question of side effects, one would still treat it, unless one wants to die. The combination means that if you treat it early, you might have long-term side effects, but probably the treatment wasn’t necessary, and never would have been. So the best strategy is to wait as long as possible, but not longer, and once treatment is needed (see above), get that treatment.

What treatment should you have? This is the third difference. Most cancers have a preferred method of treatment. Prostate cancer has two main ones: surgery and radiation (X-rays through the skin), though brachytherapy (radioactive stuff in the prostate—either weak sources which remain (seeds), LDR, or strong sources which are inserted two or three times for 15 minutes (HDR) is also not uncommon. Chemotherapy is used only palliatively after it has spread. Hormone therapy (“chemical castration”) is sometimes used before and/or during other therapies, and occasionally as a standalone therapy. The advantage is that incontinence is never a problem. Impotence is, but the libido decreases as well, so this is less noticeable. Also, it affects the memory, so you don’t know what it used to be like. For some people, this is fine, though usually it is used after it has spread and no other treatment is available. It also doesn’t work forever.

There are also more-experimental methods, such as cryotherapy (freezing it with liquid nitrogen) and HIFU (highly focussed ultrasound). Both are sometimes used when surgery or radiation would be the standard treatment, but aren’t possible for whatever reason. For a couple of years now, HIFU can also be used in a focal therapy, i.e. destroying only the (small, at most Gleason 6) tumor. If you are lucky, this works, and in such a case it is by far the best treatment: the cancer is gone, there are essentially no side effects, not even short-term ones (except a catheter for a couple of days), and you can have it again if necessary (i.e. cancer appears again) and you still meet the criteria and/or have any other treatment. (Surgery is possible only once; if something was missed, it can spread and then there is no curative treatment. Radiation therapy is possible only once as well, since repeating would have too much damage from the radiation. First radiation then surgery is not possible since the prostate is then full of scar tissue. Radiation after surgery is done occasionally if the tumor was not completely in the prostate, just to make sure.)

From 2010 to 2014 my PSA went from about 3.5 to about 7, at which point I had a biopsy (see above). With no palpable or visible (except in MRI) tumor, Gleason 6, and PSA under 10, I did nothing but monitor the PSA (and get the annual digital exams and also transrectal ultrasound, neither of which ever found anything). Early 2016 the PSA started rising more quickly, and went from about 8 to about 12 in three months. Thus an MRT and second biopsy, which indicated the tumors known from the first biopsy. Still Gleason 6, still no palpable nor visible (except in MRI) tumor, but PSA was above 10 and rising, so I needed to do something.

I gathered a lot of information. Do this, and do this before you have to hurry. Also, join a self-help group (but be aware that there is a bias towards those with problems). The most common recommendation for me was surgery, because I am relatively young (born 1964, so 50 when the first biopsy was done in 2014). I was almost ready to be operated on by the physician in whose hospital I had the second biopsy, but due to fear of side effects I wanted to check if there was something better, and focal treatment with HIFU seemed worth investigating. The physician in whose hospital I had the second biopsy offers it (which is why I had the biopsy there), but didn’t want to do it with me since the cancer was on both sides (though only 1 (of 29 on each side) sample on the left side was cancerous, and only 5 per cent of the cells were cancerous). Another recommended surgery since I was young; not enough is known about long-term success of focal HIFU. Another said I had too much calcification. A fourth said OK. I didn’t search until I found someone who said yes; I found four nearby, contacted them all, and said before that I would decide after consulting with them. By chance, the one who said OK was the last one I visited. (Even if one had said OK before, I would have still visited all.) Probably not coincidentally, the last hospital was also the only one which examined me again (the others relying on results of previous examinations). Calcification? Yes, but not in an area which would cause problems. Both sides? Yes, but the tumor on one side was really small and hardly affected. (Keep in mind that a standard biopsy with 12 or 24 samples might well have found no cancer at all in my case.) So treat the larger tumor and, if necessary, treat the smaller one later. Young? Yes, but if it doesn’t work I can still do something else.

So I had the treatment in spring 2017.

Unfortunately, although the PSA dropped from 12 to 7.5, it didn’t go below 5, as it should have. 6 weeks and 24 weeks after HIFU it was about 7.3, but after another three months it was almost 9—rising again, and fast. Thus another MRI and biopsy (best is to have the MRI first then use it, together with ultrasound, in a so-called fusion biopsy, to take more samples where the MRI indicates a tumor, but of course samples from everywhere as well). I know have Gleason 3+4 (better than 4+3, which means that it is likely to spread quickly), the percentage of cancer cells is higher than before, the tumors are larger, and there are also cancerous cells in the area treated by HIFU. Thus, I decided to have surgery. I am lucky in that the tumor is ventral and still contained within the prostate, so nerve-sparing should be possible.

Why didn’t HIFU work? I probably had a bit of cancer all over the prostate, so treating the obvious tumor wasn’t enough. Also, I had two known tumors from the beginning. They probably arose independently, i.e. one didn’t spread from the other. Further treatment with HIFU would mean destroying the whole prostate, and this is better in the long term by surgically removing it, even though it is more trouble in the short term (major operation, incontinence and maybe impotence, at least at first).

Looking back, should I have had this after the first biopsy, and/or should I have had the first biopsy earlier? Not in my case, since the apparatus capable of focal HIFU (Focal One) has only been on the market for a couple of years. But this can be an option for people who are now in the situation I was in then. Also, in my case, it would probably have to have been repeated and/or followed by another treatment anyway, since my cancer is not concentrated at one place. It doesn’t help to remove a small tumor early if other tumors arise independently later. (For prostate cancer: for tumors which rarely arise independently but rather spread from a first one, one should cut it out as soon as possible.)

The first biopsy had 46 samples taken through the perineum and 12 through the rectum. (This sounds like a lot, but these are thin needles and even with this many less than half a per cent of the prostate tissue is removed.) The second had 14, also through the rectum. I noticed no difference. In both cases it was a night in the hospital afterwards and some soreness for a few days, along with blood in the urine, and blood in sperma a bit longer. Harmless (but let the significant other know, so that she won’t be surprised). The third biopsy had 24 samples, all through the rectum. Afterwards, only slight pain for a couple of hours afterwards. Blood in urine and sperm, but not as much as before. (Also, the amount of semen produced has decreased after the HIFU treatment. One goal of focal therapy is to keep at least part of the prostate, and thus at least some ejaculate. A dry orgasm is strange, and of course not as much fun as shooting a big load, but one can get used to it. Many women also don’t ejaculate, and things are less messy. Note, however, that the ability to achieve orgasm almost never suffers due to any sort of prostate-cancer treatment; different nerves are involved.) Thus, a biopsy is essentially harmless, and not having one due to fear of pain, running the risk of having the cancer detected only when it is too late, is really not an option, unless one wants to know nothing in advance and die unexpectedly and painfully.

Because there are so many methods, you will get many different recommendations. Also, different people have different wishes: some want the cancer removed no matter what, some want to avoid an operation and/or anesthesia, and so on. Thus, even with the same cancer, different people will have different preferences. Find what is best for you. Also, the cancer is different: Gleason score, size, location, PSA value, and so on. These influence the choice of therapies.

What can one do to prevent prostate cancer? There seem to be three main factors: genetic disposition, age, and diet. One can’t do anything about the first two. There are some indications that it is influenced by diet, but it is not clear exactly how. Prostate cancer is relatively uncommon in Japan, but just as common in Japanese who have lived for decades elsewhere, indicating that there is also an environmental component. That there is a genetic component is clear: one is more likely to get it if one’s relatives have it, even allowing for similar diet and so on; also, some races get it more than others, wherever they live and whatever they eat. Some studies indicate that red and/or processed meat (also implicated in colon cancer) can encourage prostate cancer. Alcohol does also. (Alcohol is actually a big cause of cancer.) Also, anything bad for the general health, like smoking, being overweight, not enough exercise, etc. There are some hints that pomegranate extract can at least slow the growth, though it can’t cure it. Since it is otherwise harmless, there is no reason not to take a couple of capsules each day, and also eat more fish and chicken and less red meat, which probably has other advantages as well. The main factors seem to be genes and age, though.

Is PSA screening a good idea? One often hears that it isn’t worth the advantages it brings, and that it leads to unnecessary treatment. With regard to the first, if screening could save one life in a thousand for, say, a million dollars (about the cost of a PSA test a year for 1000 men for 30 years), in a statistical sense, this would be about the same price as saving a life via chemotherapy. In the latter case, it is clear that the person will die. In the former case, it is just statistical, and also depends on people following advice like that I am giving here. With limited resources, it probably makes more sense to spend money on chemotherapy, say. Also, someone with chemotherapy can’t pay the cost themself, but PSA screening costs about 10 cents a day. So even if it is not worth it to society, is your own life worth 10 cents per day? What about unnecessary treatment? PSA screening gives information. No-one is forced into a biopsy, and in any case a biopsy is a very minor disturbance with the potential to make a huge difference. Also, no-one is forced to have treatment. You can do what you want with the information. Again, from the point of view of society, maybe it isn’t worth it if there is no guarantee that the people will use the information, but it should be worth it to yourself.

I’ll report back after I’ve had surgery.

Short advice to you: If there is ONE SMALL tumor, you MIGHT find someone who would do HIFU as a focal therapy. You can then remain potent and continent with only slightly less semen in an ejaculation. If the PSA doesn’t drop significantly and stay there, you are back to square one, but with 3+4, it could change quickly to 4+3, which means danger of spreading. Don’t wait too long. Surgery is more of a pain now (or after HIFU, if HIFU doesn’t work), but much better in the long run. If you were 85, say, then radiation: less demanding, and you will be dead before the long-term side effects show up. But your case is similar to mine and you can benefit from my years of research.

Incontinence is now mostly a short-term problem, at least with a good surgeon. Impotence is a bigger problem. Whether the nerves can be spared depends on the skill of the surgeon and on where the tumor is. In your case, if it is small and contained, the sooner you have surgery the better. Have HIFU if you can within the next few weeks, and if the PSA is not significantly less half a year after, go for surgery.

Wow, daneel! What an incredible amount of information. Thanks for taking so much time to type it all. The very best of luck with your surgery and here’s hoping for uneventful healing.

Same I’ve heard ( die from something else )

Also, I’ve heard a PSA doesn’t mean that much.
I was in for a physical in September and my PSA was 9.8.

They scheduled me to see a hospital urologist for February 20, 2018

5 months after PSA blood test results.

For what it’s worth:

If all the tests come back negative next week I will be two years cancer free. Mine went from 0 to stage 4 in a year, and had spread from my knees to the top of my head (and all the joints in between). So no surgery (no point), but chemo and hormone therapy. Now, I have a friend who went thorough this several years ago, and he had surgery. They gave him exercises (Keegles, maybe), and he does not have too much trouble with incontinence, and his sex life has felt little impact (his wife says so). Me I’ve had some of the less pleasant side effects, but I keep on keeping on. The prostate went necrotic from the chemo and my body disposed of it (seminal glands and lymph nodes too, I guess). Nothing except the joints that wasn’t told to me ahead of time, and the joints probably wouldn’t be the problem they are if I hadn’t done heavy construction for way too long. No real problem with incontinence, but I take a kind of Flomax (the original stuff didn’t work) to help with that.

Now, in 1998 my father was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer (from what I understand it was 4.999999999…). His was slow acting, and he just didn’t worry about it (he didn’t go back to the doctor 16 years previously probably because he was afraid of what they might say), but it got to the point that he was having all sorts of trouble. He was given six months to two years to live, and his doctor later told him he was betting on six months. He did not get chemo, nor a lot of the other treatments because he was too ill by this time. They tried hormone therapy on him (because what could it hurt?). He died in 2015 at the age of 83.

Everything about your case may be different,

Best of luck to you . . . really.

Be careful here. While a high PSA doesn’t necessarily mean cancer, and while one can have cancer without a high PSA, the correlation is nevertheless strong. Note: Always measure the PSA after refraining from prostate strain for a certain length of time (between 3 and 5 days; the exact time doesn’t matter, but it should be the same time every time). Even if you have cancer, if the PSA is below 10 and there are no other symptoms, it might not have to be treated, at least not now. My PSA was below 10 for years even though I knew that I had cancer (from a biopsy). But suddenly it increased very rapidly. Not surprisingly, the Gleason score got higher (worse).

Get a biopsy. It is harmless. Then you know. If your PSA then starts to increase, do something reasonably quickly. Yes, prostate cancer usually doesn’t have to be treated, but if it becomes aggressive and spreads, it can’t be cured anymore, only the symptoms can be reduced by drugs, and it is a nasty death after it has spread to the bones.

So thanks to all for the contributions to this thread; I’ve been reading, but caught up in other things, but appreciate all the stories and advice. I’m off work this coming week and will try to catch up and respond to others.

Cancer update:

I had a 2nd opinion consult with another urologist yesterday, someone recommended by a person who runs a local Prostate Support Group in my area. This doctor doesn’t do surgery any more, but he refers someone like me to people who do that or do radiation.

Takeaways:

  • He agrees my cancer is very very likely contained. (He examined me, gross details omitted). It has to be dealt with, but not, like, TODAY. But it has to be dealt with.
  • He didn’t see redoing the pathology as worth doing for me. If I were older (I’m 55), certainly a “wait and see”, conservative approach is worth considering, but I’m not and this will eventually get me, where someone who is, say, 70 could live with it , for quite a long time, until something else gets them.
  • He offered that a bone scan may or may not be worth doing to see if it had spread, though he was skeptical of the value and thought it unlikely it wasn’t contained (for now), but offered me that choice.
  • I found out that, whatever I decide, I can’t do anything until my prostate heals from my last biopsy (3 months minimum). So there’s a breathing space for a bit to line my ducks up. Which is a relief to hear, since my inclination is to do just that: proceed, but proceed deliberately.
  • He referred me to a surgeon at Stanford who has been doing robotic surgery of this type forever, and I’m going to start the process of consulting with this new doctor, which may take several weeks. I’m told that this new doctor may want bone scans and new pathology etc, and we’ll see which way that goes.
    (Phew, I think that’s everything.)

I’m going to follow up with this new doctor after the new year.

For PSA junkies (agree this is a v flaky indicator) my PSA is 12. Rock solid, hasn’t changed in 3 years.

This sounds like a well-thought-out, logical plan. I hope all goes smoothly and that in a few months you’ll be what my onc calls “boring”.

Great to hear, **squeegee **- sounds like a well-thought-out plan.

The OP follows up:

I had radical prostatectomy robotic surgery on March 27 at Stanford hospital by Dr Ben Chung. I was in the hospital overnight, and home now for nearly two weeks. I wore a catheter (ugh) until just a couple of days ago, now I’m doing my Kegles and wearing a pull-up (sigh). I’m very very sore, but getting better. There’s eight incisions in my belly, and I’ll never look good in a swimsuit again, otherwise fine. My belly is still very bloated, and I’m wearing large sized sweats and feeling self conscious. I can finally drive again, run errands and get out a bit, which helps my mood. Though I do swing from feeling okay and relatively optimistic to very very lost and depressed, depending on the day.

TMI:Nobody told me my penis/scrotum would swell up like a purple balloon the first week :eek:, which was painful but apparently normal and it’s gone back to regular size again. The doctors / nurses have been good and thorough answering questions, usually electronically, and an on-call urologist called me and reassured me this wasn’t unusual.

The big news was that my surgeon called me earlier today with the pathology results. He said nothing had spread to my nearby lymph nodes. But. There was a microscopic bit of cancer just outside the prostate. He described as exceedingly small, and he was very sure I wouldn’t need further treatment, but said it did increase the risk of the cancer returning. He downplayed it quite a bit, saying the chance of recurrence for me was very very slight. He says we’ll just have to watch the PSA blood work in 3 months and keep an eye on things. I’m going to ask for a copy of the pathology report and just google any term I don’t understand, try to wrap my head around this. Perhaps I’ll go see my 2nd opinion urologist and see what he thinks, though perhaps that’s just borrowing trouble.

So I’m incontinent (for now), impotent (for some period to forever). I’ll be out of work for a few more weeks at least, and will try to exercise and rest for those weeks.

At least I reached my insurance deductible for the year and prescriptions are cheap again. My OOP for the surgery was $6000 (basically the entire insurance deductible), though I haven’t seen more paperwork so perhaps there’s some surprises.

Holy fuck. What an ordeal. Glad you’re through the worst of it. <Big sloppy kiss on the cheek>

A “microscopic bit of cancer outside the prostate” is worrisome IMHO (I’m not a doctor, but still…). I just had a breast biopsy because the mammogram saw something microscopic. Microscopic counts. (Mine was benign.) Maybe a dash of radiation is in order? Google away, but consider a second opinion, too.

All the best to you.

Thanks for the reply. He did mention radiation if the PSA blood work indicated anything. I guess we’ll wait and see.

I’m glad you found a treatment route. Best wishes to you as you heal.

Squeegee, I’m glad that’s over and you’re recovering uneventfully. I recommend against Googling for information. I did and managed to scare myself out of my mind for no reason. Get a second opinion, if necessary, but use your doctor as your primary resource. The one thing you could do is look for online support groups. Not that you necessarily want the support, but you’ll find people who’ve been through this already and could give you better information than Google searches. I got very good information from a support group on Facebook.