I thought I was cryptic enough about it-guess not. (sorry)
I always thought that the show had a strong, unstated implication that most vampires deliberately choose dorks, idiots, wannabes, and other losers. Vampires aren’t big on loyalty: every time they turn someone, they’re creating a potential rival. So, they deliberately target people that they think they can control, leading to a lot of dim-witted canon fodder running around. One of the things that makes older vampires so dangerous is that they’re powerful enough to keep smart, canny vampires in check. They don’t have to be so picky about what sort of victim they pick out, and so their minions tend to be more dangerous than your run-of-the-mill vampire who was turned by a spoiled cheerleader, or something.
But Angel was not a dork. Nor was Darla.
What major vampires do we know?
Angel(womanizer), Darla(prostitute), Spike(Dork), Drusilla(crazy), Master(unknown), Harmony(dumb girl), Mr Trick(not a dork)…who else?
What evidence is there that losers become vampires?
Every single stupid minion that Buffy ever killed because they were utterly brainless fodder?
Angel is a dork, but…sometimes I think his dorkiness is an act. Kind of like in Kill Bill 2 when Bill explains that Superman wears a human costume–Clark Kent.
I wouldn’t say they chose necessarily chose dorks or losers, but there might be some credence to them choosing people that they thought they could easily control once they were turned.
[spoiler]Angel was a bit of a dork, or at least an 18th century version of one. All he did was booze all night, hit on barmaids and his family’s help, and sleep all day. Since there wasn’t much to be “dorky” about back then, that’s about as close as you could get. Darla figured that since he loved women so much, he would pretty much do whatever she said/wanted (and this is pretty much true.)
Darla, being a prostitute, was likely not smart/educated, not well-to-do, and probably lacked any sort of real skills (hence why she whored herself out.) Clearly not the best and the brightest the 1600’s had to offer. And as with Angel, she pretty much did do whatever her sire asked of her, up until she sired Angel and she wanted to be with him…but then once Angel got his soul, she went back to The Master.
Harmony was just turned by a random vamp, so we don’t know what, if any, big plan he had, but she (as shown several times) is a terrible vampire. No worry about her usurping anyone’s power.
Spike, as we all agree, was a huge dork, so we know Drusilla felt she could keep him in check.
Drusilla was a little crazy from her visions, but went more crazy after getting tortured and then turned by Angel. Since he practically broke her psyche into that of a little girl’s, he knew he could control her.
At the start of season 4 of Buffy, she fights a group of really pretentious douche vampires who are stuck in the early 90’s. We don’t know who turned who, but I’d bet money that blond chick that was in charge turned at least a couple of the ones that were even bigger losers than her.
In season 2 of Angel, Darla tries to get some random vamp to turn her back, and he admits he has never done it, and he was a GIANT dork when he was turned.
And we don’t know anything, really, about The Master, Kakistos, Mr.Trick, The Prince of Lies, or other older vamps other than the fact that they are old. Did they survive for so long because they were the strongest/smartest/whatever when they were humans? Or were they average or below average, and just lucked out in their early vampire years and became the strongest/smartest/whatever? Hard to say. [/spoiler]
I’d like to think that some of the earlier vampires were turned because they were strong and smart, back when maybe a lot of demons and vampires thought they would “take back” the world from the humans. In the intervening years, enough of the newly sired ones killed their masters and decided they would rather not have that happen to them, so started to turn the losers into vamps.
There has always been plenty to be “dorky” about, and your description of him is the antithesis of what a dork is. All it takes to be a dork is to prefer the focus on meaningless minutia to the company of the opposite sex. I know virtually nothing of the mid-1700s; maybe a dork would be way into alchemy, or making ships-in-a-bottle or something.
bouv – just got a report that most of your post included spoilers – which, per the premise of the thread, should not be left hanging out in the open. I’ve never watched Buffy, so I don’t know what is and what isn’t a spoiler – but please be careful not to throw down a bunch of information that the OP has specifically requested that you be cautious about revealing.
Thanks,
twickster, Cafe Society moderator
Really? I was under the impression that olivesmarch4th had already watched everything I posted…she is in Angel season 2/Buffy season 5, and that’s as far as what I posted goes, but better safe than sorry I suppose.
Well I got the impression that he wasn’t successful with the ladies. He hit on them all the time, but was also turned down all the time.
Why is this even a spoiler? Hey people who are eager to report posts for spoilers, what I’m about to write in response to this non-spoiler is more non-spoilers.
Angel/Liam was quite successful with the ladies because he was at the bar. Where all the ladies were prostitutes and serving girls. And I believe it was implied in Amends that he didn’t really care if they were agreeable or not. Liam’s problem wasn’t that he wasn’t good at the whoring and the drinking–his problem was that he was too good. Just like Angelus’ “problem” was that he was too good at the maiming and the killing. And each time, the ultimate result of quenching his big appetites for drink and flesh was a type of death.
I’m the one who reported it, and if my memory is fuzzy, I apologize, but I’m pretty sure some of that post wasn’t revealed until LATE in Angel Season 2, and olives was only up to the first few eps of Angel S2/Buffy S5, last we knew.
SpecificallyThe backstory on Angel and Darla, as well as Darla coming back human. Also, Spike’s dorkishness isn’t revealed until “Fool for love”, which is a little ways into Buffy S5.
May have jumped the gun a bit in asking for the whole post to be spoilered, but as an extremely spoiler-averse person, I didn’t want to risk ruining anything for olives, and I didn’t have time this morning to delve into wiki and confirm.
And in the interest of openness, I’m the one who reported the spoiler at the bottom of the previous page, so it’s not just one person running around reporting spoilers.
John DiFool did word it cryptically, but it still came awfully close to spoiling……the big reveal at the end of the series finale.
He’s a genius compared to j.j. abrams.
Or Ron Moore.
We are now dead center in the middle of **Buffy Season 5/ Angel Season 2.
**
UNBOXED SPOILERS to follow. Episodes covered in Buffy Season 5:
The Replacement
Out of My Mind
No Place Like Home
Family
Fool for Love
Shadow
Listening to Fear
Into the Woods
I wasn’t sure where they were going with Dawn and worried they were going to make it into something stupid, but now that her purpose has been revealed, I am absolutely loving the story arc. Those monk dudes did the most brilliant thing ever by placing their key with Buffy in the form of a human. And it certainly adds to the drama that she has no idea. Glory is a fun villain. They do a god job playing her up to be a real threat.
So much good stuff going on this season I’m sure I will forget to mention some of it. The Spike crushing on Buffy thing is somewhere between creepy and hilarious. The episode Fool For Love, where we get Spike’s history, is wonderfully directed, especially that bit where they splice together scenes of Buffy ‘‘fighting’’ Spike and Spike fighting the slayer on a subway in New York. (And awesome crossover showing the Boxer Rebellion both from Spike’s POV in Buffy and later from Angel’s POV in Angel.) Obviously he doesn’t have a shot in hell but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Then we have the brain tumor drama, which certainly complicates things. At first I thought it was kinda cheap but they did it well enough. If I can just add, that alien creature from Listening to Fear is hands-down the creepiest fucking thing I have ever seen. I could not be alone after watching that.
I also really enjoyed The Replacement, which made literal Xander’s insecurities. I like how they have shown his character growing over this season, particularly that he stepped in when Buffy and Riley were imploding. I want Xander to be happy.
Speaking of Buffy/Riley imploding, that’s basically where we left off. I’ve been wanting Riley gone for a while now but they didn’t have to do it so tragically! Buffy definitely dropped the ball in this relationship but so did Riley. It is kind of B.S. that he expected her to get over such a huge betrayal in time to stop him from leaving that same day. But it is tragic they couldn’t work it out.
Regardless, Season 5 of Buffy is absolutely the best season so far and it’s only halfway through. I think what makes it great is that even though they are dealing with several different plot and character arcs, it all seems like part of a cohesive whole. It all makes sense. My current ranking would be 5, 2, 3, 4, 1.
Thoughts on the first half of Angel Season 2 to follow in a while.
Attention, everybody who has seen Buffy/Angel: Not a word. Not a hint. Not a reference. Not even a “Boy, are you in for a ride!” Let her see it fresh, with no clue as to what is about to happen. We owe her (and the cast/crew/Joss) that much.
The Buffy/Riley implosion was very well done. I felt like you do, and almost teared up during Into the Woods.
MAJOR ANGEL SEASON 2 UNBOXED SPOILERS
I was just going back through this thread to see if there were any spoilers I could read now (there were a few, and though I didn’t read others I can tell what is being discussed and CAN’T WAIT to put in my 2c.)
BigT’s comment a while back just sparked a serious ‘‘OMG’’ moment in light of recent events on Angel:
I just finished watching episode 11 of Angel Season 2. For those who don’t remember the 11th episode of Angel Season 2, it’s ‘‘Reunion.’’ You know, the one where he gleefully leaves Darla and Drusilla to feast on his enemies at Wolfram and Hart. Key word being ‘‘gleeful.’’ As in, happiness…
Our general reaction to the end of ‘‘Reunion’’ was ‘‘Oh shit, oh shit. Oh shit.’’
But given BigT’s comment and the nature of Angel’s curse I realize a more appropriate response may be ‘‘OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT!!!’’
It’s about this time in the series that Buffy running becomes a running joke. Have we ever seen her running and end up with a good result?
Ha, I never thought about it that way before.
We just watched episode 12 ‘‘Triangle’’ and before it started I said, ‘‘This is the episode where Buffy mopes a lot over Riley.’’ I thought the fact that they filled it with a lot of action and (mostly) underplayed the drama was really refreshing. Also, ‘‘Puny receptacle!’’ (said by Troll as he smashes a dumpster) still has me giggling.
Willow: You’ve been around a long time, you should know all the rules by now.
Anya: The rules are stupid.
I love Anya.
As far as Angel, haven’t watched further than Ep. 11 yet, but still… processing. I think I will wait a few more episodes before I share my thoughts.
Yeah, I still think Angel doesn’t really get to its best stuff until season 4. I know that’s a long ride, but I think seasons 4 and 5 of Angel are the best “Buffy” seasons of all.
Anyway, what do you think of Glory?
No, but he was a major loser - a womanizing drunk who was never going to amount to much of anything. If you watch the flashback episodes from shortly after he was turned, Darla seems surprised by how much of a bad-ass he became when he was turned into a vampire. Darla thought she was creating another mook. What she ended up getting surprised even herself.
Right. And she was created personally by the Master, who specifically sought her out to serve her. Remember, there’s two sides to my argument here: one is that most vampires deliberately seek out losers, dorks, and wannabes because they’ll be easier to control. The other side is that truly ancient vampires are limited by this, because they’re so powerful they don’t have to worry about their spawn turning into credible threats.
For the most part, looking at “major” vampires (I assume you mean major in the sense of “plot important”) isn’t going to tell us anything, because, aside from the occasional comic relief, the major reoccuring vampiric characters are going to be the ones that are especially dangerous, otherwise they’d get killed by Buffy as soon as they show up. These vampires are exceptions to the rule, either because they were sired directly by an ancient vampire (Darla, Mr. Trick), or because something about their mortal existence was limiting their potential (Angel, Spike) and it wasn’t until they were freed from the constraints of their mortal morality that they reached their full bad-ass potential.
Pretty much every other vampire in the show who shows up for one episode and takes a stake to the chest. I’m thinking of folks like the Gorch brothers, or Harmony’s coterie, or the vampire that tries to kill Willow in the pilot, and is spotted by Buffy because of his atrocious fashion sense. The canon fodder, not the major movers and shakers.