I loved this entire episode as well. Very classy.
Also liked the parallel where the count had to let his dancer go at the same time Wesley had to let Fred go.
(Didn’t recognize River either… cool.)
Ok, I just heard the funniest part of the series so far.
Willow says, “the school paper has been depressing recently,” and her boyfriend replies, “I wouldn’t know, I go straight to the obit’s.”
Just the thought of a school with so many deaths that the school paper needs an obituary section is hilarious.
I also liked vampire Willow from a few episodes ago. 
Just finished Angel Season 3. Major UNBOXED SPOILERS to follow…
(Note: We have NOT finished Buffy Season 6. Just finished Seeing Red and still have eps 20, 21 & 22 to go there.)
This season of Angel has been so good it’s hard to come up with substantial commentary on it. Leaving aside the great job of the core cast, they’ve brought newcomers (Holtz, that chick who loves Holtz, Connor) who act so well that they really elevate the storyline even more. There’s not a single character that doesn’t seem entirely three-dimensional. I think Angel overall has more respect for its villains than Buffy, and it’s a difference I like.
I didn’t love Darla, so I wasn’t entirely devastated to see her removed from the picture. However, the way they did it was really compelling, and that actress did a hell of a job. It’s hard to imagine what a demon must feel like nurturing and loving a creature with a soul, but I suppose she pretty much nailed it. That scene where Angel picked up his newborn son in the alley and locked eyes with Holtz as he left was goosebumps.
And the progression of Wesley from cheesy insecure Watcher to… well, the dark soul he currently is has been really gradual and painstaking and therefore entirely believable. I hope he gets a chance to tell his side of the story at some point. I have to believe he slept with Lila out of spite for her (like a total hate fuck) or some other ulterior motive. I don’t think he has an evil bone in his body. I enjoyed the reference to Dante’s Inferno and Judas Iscariot as the greatest sinner. IIRC one of the other people in the 9th circle of hell was Brutus, who betrayed Caesar. I love lit references and welcome more.
After watching Buffy I got used to things being mostly resolved at the end of every Season. We stayed up late to watch the finale of Angel 'cuz I couldn’t stand the suspense, and then they left Angel at the bottom of the ocean and Cordy ascending to a higher plane and Wesley further away from the gang than ever. Thank God I don’t have to wait three months to resolve that. If I’d have been watching it originally aired on TV I think I would have stuck my foot through the television set.
Maybe it’s because I’m a hopeless romantic, but I love the whole developing situation between Angel and Cordy, and I loved watching Cordy’s progression to a higher being. I’m guessing her choice to ascend is going to be the deciding factor that saves Angel, and, if true that’s very moving. I don’t really want to lose her either.
I understand Connor’s pissed off right now, but what he did to Angel is seriously evil. Since Angel can’t die** he’s pretty much been assigned to an eternity of torment, thinking about how Holtz twisted his son’s mind toward hate for him, but also how he pretty much deserves it because he now understands what he took from Holtz. He faces a decidedly broody eternity.
I hope Lorne isn’t gone for good. I think he’s been taken for granted lately so I can’t blame him for skipping out, but I don’t want an Angel without Lorne.
And Wesley… Jesus Christ, are we losing all our characters? panic
**I was thinking though, won’t Angel die after a matter of time without blood?
Plan to finish Buffy Season 6 today, updates soon!
The sooner you finish the* Buffy* season, the sooner you can begin the next Angel season! In which you will get answers to some of your questions. And a whole bunch of new questions…
Come on, now, do you really need to sleep?
According to Spike, a vamp who is denied blood wastes away until they are no more than animated almost-skeletons.
Be aware that there are strong feelings and split opinions about Angel Season 4. Some of us think it’s the best season of the show, others think it’s the worst.
If I recall correctly, Charisma Carpenter was the oldest of the “teenagers” in Buffy, and by the end of season 3 she really couldn’t carry it off anymore. When she moved over to Angel, her character seemed to age six or seven years, to something closer to the actress’s true age.
Her and Nicholas Brendon are roughly the same age. Both were in their late 20s during Buffy and Charisma actually just turned 40 a few days ago.
ETA: She was 11 years older than Cordelia was suppsoed to be on the show.
Yeah, and Nicholas Brendan is too old too, and I think he kind of aged a few years rapidly there between seasons 5 and 6.
They went from 18 to 23 over one summer, basically.
I think Season 4 of Angel is even more reviled in general than Seasons Six and Seven of Buffy, but there just isn’t as much arguing over it despite some (incredibly misguided) people considering it one of the best seasons of either show.
I’m in season 4 of Buffy now. Just finished watching Primeval where they possess Buffy so she can kill Adam. The season’s not as good as the 3rd but it’s still pretty darn awesome.
Xander is still a douche though.
I love Anya though. How can you not love an anti-man vengeance demon that’s hopelessly in love with a loser of a guy.
Oh and the Willow’s girlfriend, the witch lady, seems like a fairly decent character too. We don’t really get to see too much of her though. She’s usually only involved in the scenes wit Willow. I thought she would have joined The Scoobies by now.
Spike is still trying to figure out what to do now that he can’t attack humans. I must have watched a later episode of Buffy a long time ago because I know he ends up working for them, just like I knew Willow was going to turn into a lesbian (or bi I guess). So he’s eventually going to turn into a ghost?
So far, so good. I’m not sure what they’re going to do with the next half of this season though.
Vying for the #1 demon spot are Anya and Gachnar. I think I almost fell out of my chair when they finally showed him. Then, again, when Giles mentioned he neglected to read the caption which said “fine print.”
Anya’s my favorite. She just blurts out whatever’s on her mind. My best friend is like that. It’s a quality I admire.
I finished Buffy Season 6. Unboxed spoilers in the post to follow (seriously, I know you said you don’t mind spoilers, but there are so many things ahead that are great because they are so unexpected. You’re playing with fire in this thread.)
I’ve been very careful with what I read, and don’t read. No spoilers so far.
I think Angel viewers can be divided into two: those who think Season 4 was the best season in the Buffyverse, and people who can’t recognize awesomeness when they see it.
Finished Buffy Season 6. UNBOXED MAJOR SPOILERS BELOW.
I for one loved the whole thing. There were a couple weak episodes and a couple weak moments in some episodes (’‘Wrecked’’ for me combined some great moments with some terrible ones,) but overall I think it is the second best season of Buffy and there’s damn near a tie between that and Season 5. There I said it. I absolutely loved watching everything fall apart. It was inevitable with the kind of shit they’re dealing with.
I regret to inform all of you that due to my moronic investigation of spoiler boxes in this thread I assumed were ‘‘safe,’’ I knew about Spike trying to rape Buffy. I found out shortly after Older and Far Away. It pretty much cast the whole of their relationship in a different light.
My ranking would go 5, 6, 2+3, 1, 4. And I only put 1 ahead of 4 because Season 4 should have known better. At least with Season 1 you get that it’s going to take a while for things to come together. Also, the last half of Season 4 is not bad, but the beginning half is the worst set of episodes out of the whole series.
My husband’s ranking would go 5, 2+3, 6, 4, 1.
The last part of Season 6 (Entropy through the finale) IMO rivals all of Season 5. I told you guys I knew Dark Willow was coming! Holy shit was that a fun ride! Also, for pure CGI, that scene where she sucks all the text off the dark magic books was pretty badass. You could tell they were having a lot of fun with the budget in the finale.
Dark Willow: There’s no one in the world powerful enough to stop me.
Giles appearing out of nowhere: I’d like to test that theory.
Best moment EVER. Though I didn’t completely get his explanation for why sucking his magics out helped Willow connect with her internal humanity. I thought Xander did a fine job of that all by himself.
And of course WAHHH Tara. 
That moment at the end of Seeing Red was one of the most completely unexpected moments in the entire series. Like it really came right the fuck out of nowhere. At first I thought Xander was shot, then I was all like, ‘‘wait, where did the blood come from on Willow?’’ and then ‘‘oh shit.’’ My husband says Dark Willow reminds him of Dark Phoenix of the X-men. Me thinks Mr. Whedon is a comic book fan. My husband also says Angel is Batman with fangs.
Anyway, I think Seeing Red is one of the best episodes of the entire series. Even the rape scene was beautifully executed, and it’s easy to go all cheesy and patronizing and unintentionally objectifying with that particularly subject.
Which of course brings us to Spike’s request. It’s not entirely clear to me at this point whether he was asking for a resouling or not (I lean toward not), but holy crap, yet another totally unexpected moment. I can’t wait to see the inevitable crossover with Angel.
Conclusion:
Angel Season 3: Full of win.
Buffy Season 6: Full of win.
I suspect Buffy will be downhill from here, but I have high hopes for Angel. I know Season 4 of Angel is not universally liked, but people hated Season 6 of Buffy, too. I have to remain an optimist here.
Which brings me to a question… someone commented upthread about some event happening in Season 4 that they wish they had never seen. Is that because it’s bad TV, or because it involves something really disturbing, like, say, graphic protracted torture of a human being? I ask because I am really sensitive to that sort of thing and if there is some deeply disturbing graphic torture scene in Angel I’d rather just skip it.
Thanks! (No, seriously, thanks.) I can’t believe we’re almost through with Buffy. This thread has been a total ride.
Whedon wrote about forty issues of X-Men a couple years ago, and has previously stated that Willow is based at least in part on Kitty Pryde.
The season four thing that someone didn’t want to see was sexual. Nothing dealing with torture. It won’t be a trigger.
He was requesting his soul. The writers always meant for that to happen. Joss has said it several times. The problem is that they told Marsters to play it like Spike was going to get his chip out, because they wanted the reveal to be that much more shocking. Which really pisses me off because all it did was make the fandom explode in wank for like two years. (“Spike didn’t really want his soul!” “STFU yes he did.” “No he didn’t! He said he wanted Buffy to have what she deserved!” “SHE DESERVES A MAN AND THAT’S THE CLOSEST HE CAN BE GODDAMNIT. IT WAS AN ACT OF LOVE!” “HE WAS TRICKED INTO HAVING THE SOUL AND HE REALLY WANTS TO RAPE HER AGAIN!”)
I think S7 has very strong moments, and honestly, I think you’ll like it. I know a lot of people don’t, but in hindsight, it was a great season that really did show some growth in the characters. S4 is amazing (and there are no protracted scenes of torture or though there are plenty of violent moments and explicit threats of violence. It is a DARK season in every sense of the word. Anyway, the thing people wish they didn’t see in S4 had nothing to do with violence).
You’re in the spot now, Olives, where I (at least), began liking Angel a bit (and then, even later, a lot) more than Buffy.
You only have one more season of Buffy (well, if you’re not planning to read the comic book season 8) but still two more seasons of Angel. You’re about to start Season 7/Buffy and Season 4/Angel, right?
Yep, that’s where it makes the full turn, IMO. While Buffy isn’t bad…Angel just supercedes it in so many ways starting now. I found myself actually watching Buffy season seven episodes just to get them out of the way so I could have just the awesomeness of Angel season four left over.
Even Angel season five was really good, IMO…better than Buffy season seven, sadly, although YMMV.
Yeah, Angel is the superior show once you are done with season 6 of Buffy.
Just finished Season 4! Didn’t really care much for the last episode though. It wasn’t very finale-ish.
The fifth season of Angel is terrific. It and the third season are as good as the best seasons of Buffy.