So I'm Finally Watching Buffy... [Progressive unboxed spoilers]

[Alessan]

Although just like Season 4, it starts very slowly. The first few episodes are pure filler.

[bouv]

@olivesmarch4th

Which brings me to a question… someone commented upthread about some event happening in Season 4 that they wish they had never seen. Is that because it’s bad TV, or because it involves something really disturbing, like, say, graphic protracted torture of a human being? I ask because I am really sensitive to that sort of thing and if there is some deeply disturbing graphic torture scene in Angel I’d rather just skip it.

No, it’s not graphic in any way. Just really…weird.

Angel season 4…yeah, fans are divided on it…I’m still divided on it myself. Parts I LOVE (the first episode: I’ll take away your bucket…, parts I like, but a couple things I really hate, so…I like it more than Buffy season 6, which I didn’t hate, but was mostly “meh” about (it just felt a lot like the season was spinning it’s wheels and not going anywhere, not doing anything, no character growth…just everyone whining at bitching at each other.)

Buffy season 7…that’s my least liked season, but like the other seasons, there are still some amazing episodes.

[Spice_Weasel]

@lissener

So as you can see, olives, it’s not a universal consensus that seasons 6&7 sucked. The arc of the tone of the show went basically: funny to serious to, in season 6 *seriously *serious, and a lot of people feel like the fun went out of the show at that point. But for me, that’s when the show grew up and became the greatest show in American TV history: all the fun stuff, and prepatory, teenage practice seriousness paid off. When the real serious hit, all the growth that had come before became specifically relevant, and the characters became ever more human.

I agree with all of this (Yay reading Season 6 spoilers! Fun fun!) I agree, strongly, with pretty much every defense you’ve mounted for Season 6 in this thread, to the extent that there’s not much I can add.

@pepperlandgirl

On the other hand, this is an important moment for Wesley. He never knew Angelus personally, and it’s easy to be on the “Angel deserves forgiveness” train when Wesley isn’t the one who has to forgive him. But now…now this is personal. Can Wesley still be committed to redemption, to the idea of atonement and forgiveness, after such a personal and devastating attack? Faith is as much a test for him as she is for Angel.

This actually further puts Wesley’s choice to support Angel (or take his baby - depends on your perspective I guess) - into perspective. The naive, slightly incompetent Wesley that started out on Buffy is now someone who has grown due to experience of this vileness directly – and yet he still chooses to be a part of Angel Investigations. I expected Angel to get the shaft in AtS but it’s really Wesley who seems to be getting it. A lot of the shit Angel is dealing with he brought on himself.

I’m not saying Wesley’s decision to tell nobody about the prophesy was correct, but the mass uprising against him without even giving him a chance to explain his side of the story is even more indefensible, IMO. Angel’s rage, while not necessarily entirely rational, is understandable, because it involves his fucking kid, but everyone else is just being an unmitigated jerk.

@Angel_of_the_Lord

[Spoiler]I think that this really applies to the other much-maligned subplot of Season Six–namely, the magic addiction. In the beginning, they seemed to be very much on track to frame Willow’s addiction to magic as being psychological in nature. It was addictive in that it allowed her to get whatever she wanted–she got to bring her friend back from the dead, after all, with no thought about whether she should or shouldn’t. She began using magic for mundane tasks–decorating for a party, for instance. When called on it, she used magic to try to fix her significant other to her liking. And then, when she was called on that, she did the exact same thing. She took the easy way out instead of trying to put in the work or taking her lumps.

This was an insightful character arc. The thing is, in the very next freaking episode, they decided that, nope, magic was addictive like drugs were addictive. And you could get high from it. And it was sold in sleazy, hidden flophouses by dealers who look like Willem Dafoe. And the only solution was to stop using it altogether. No trying to use it responsibly–cold turkey was the way to go.

I think this pissed a lot of people off, because it was really heavy-handed, and, more importantly, completely inconsistent with where they seemed to have been going with it. Then, at the end of the season, they did the following:

1.) Had Tara going back to Willow for no real reason except that she hadn’t been using magic. This despite the fact that the issues they were having had far more to do about control, and less to do with magic. They then immediately killed her off. So, basically, they brought her back to be killed. This left a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths.

2.) When Willow went all bad-magic-mojo-mama, it was back in the vein of her trying to use magic to fix things to her liking, albeit on a much more dramatic scale. It wasn’t the drugs metaphor that they’d been drumming from midseason on. And this wouldn’t have been so bad if it were only reflecting some kind of misjudgement that the characters had made. . .but it wasn’t. It was reflecting the Super!Obvious!Metaphor! they’d foisted upon us with characters that they’d invented.

Basically, if they’d cut out the whole of the middle chunk of that arc, it would’ve been a hell of a lot better. As it was, they addressed it a bit in season seven, but that season had its own problems.[/spoiler]

As much as I loved Season 6, I have to acknowledge your input as legitimate criticism. My problem wasn’t that Willow had a problem with magic addiction, it was the nature of the addiction. Rather than cutting out the middle part of Season 6, I would just cut out Wrecked, or re-write it. The scene in Wrecked where Willow is high on the ceiling because of some hypersexual magic pusher is off-the-wall levels of clishé and cheesy. And then for the breaking point to be a reckless moment with Dawn – it was like watching an after school special.

Ultimately, Alison Hannigan’s performance and the intensity of Willow’s emotions saved it for me, but I did think this episode was poorly written. And I think that episode was stupid enough on its own to cast a pall for less forgiving viewers on the season in its entirely.

Keep in mind, however, that Willow wasn’t always dealing in dark magics. The implication is that certain dark magics have a physically addictive property, not necessarily all magics. The first time Willow used dark magic was in absolute desperation to resurrect Buffy. That experience changed her, first it made her arrogant, then, when she realized what she had done to Buffy, it touched on her already existing deep insecurities. What had made her feel good became a refuge from the parts of herself she despised.

The thing is, they should have focused on the unique psychology of Willow instead of just making her seem like a generic junkie. Because the generic junkie story has already been told, in better ways. Willow’s character deserved a little more respect than she got in certain episodes of Season 6. But enough episodes hit the mark for me that I can overlook that in my overall assessment of the Season.

Either way, Dark Willow is 1000 kinds of badass and I have no regrets!

The arguments about Xander/Anya and Buffy/Spike I don’t buy though. They all made sense to me in context. You could see the fallout from Xander/Anya coming from a mile away. And Buffy was fucked up, you know. These people don’t lead normal lives. It’s inevitable that some dysfunction would start to happen at some point. There’s only so far you can push the human spirit before it starts to break. And these kids really took a lot of shit before they started to fall apart.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Hades

Whedon wrote about forty issues of X-Men a couple years ago, and has previously stated that Willow is based at least in part on Kitty Pryde.

The season four thing that someone didn’t want to see was sexual. Nothing dealing with torture. It won’t be a trigger.

According to Wikipedia, Joss Whedon said he based Buffy on Kitty Pride. I suppose I should have known Whedon wrote for X-men. Buffy/Angel has the comic book mythos all over it. This is one reason I take the crazy deviations in stride. Comics aren’t about realism or consistency so much as building to these instances of intensity that mirror reality. Just those instants where you connect and relate and feel are all that matter. (Totally MO of course.)

My husband also said the scene where Xander talks Dark Willow down reminded him of Spiderman. My knowledge is mostly limited to hearing him talk about comics a lot.

Also, thanks for letting me know about that scene in Angel Season 4. Although I do realize in retrospect I’ve endured a lot of torture scenes on this show already. I’m not really sure why I thought one more would be just too much.

[Ephemera]

I don’t really see how Kitty, a Jewish computer whiz with reddish brown hair and defensive super powers, is much of an influence on Buffy, but the article’s got a cite from Whedonesque. Makes no sense to me.

[silenus]

@olivesmarch4th

[ I suppose I should have known Whedon wrote for X-men. Buffy/Angel has the comic book mythos all over it.

But Joss wrote Amazing X-Men years after Buffy.

[Spice_Weasel]

@silenus

@olivesmarch4th

[ I suppose I should have known Whedon wrote for X-men. Buffy/Angel has the comic book mythos all over it.

But Joss wrote Amazing X-Men years after Buffy.

Yeah, but if he later wrote, one could presume he was a fan of comics prior to producing Buffy, right? It wouldn’t surprise me if he grew up reading comics and that influenced how he wrote Buffy.

Hades, I agree with you Kitty Pride sounds more like Willow (assuming your description of her is accurate, I know she’s an X-Men character but nothing else.) Wonder if there’s an error in Wikipedia.

[Ephemera]

No. I followed the cites. Joss says Kitty was an influence on Buffy in an interview and from context, it’s obvious he means the Slayer, and not the series.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Hades

No. I followed the cites. Joss says Kitty was an influence on Buffy in an interview and from context, it’s obvious he means the Slayer, and not the series.

Okay, that’s weird.

[Wolverine]

Just a reminder: Firefly was aired at the same time as Buffy Season 7 and **Angel **Season 4. Some of Whedon’s influence is not as strong in the direction of the shows you’re watching.

Viewing advice, but could be considered spoilers:

Look for possible cameos of Firefly actors in the shows in mid-season after Firefly would have been cancelled.

[Waffle_Decider]

@BrotherCadfael

@Waffle_Decider

The growth of Cordy and Wesley is one of the things that I love about the shows. It was done so extremely well, in such an interesting and believable way. Just compare Cordy with Harmony, and you can readily see how far she has come.

If I recall correctly, Charisma Carpenter was the oldest of the “teenagers” in Buffy, and by the end of season 3 she really couldn’t carry it off anymore. When she moved over to Angel, her character seemed to age six or seven years, to something closer to the actress’s true age.

I would also add that her boobs seemed to have grown several cup sizes in the later seasons of Angel. She even mentioned it in a season 4 episode!

[gonzoron]

@olivesmarch4th

@Hades

No. I followed the cites. Joss says Kitty was an influence on Buffy in an interview and from context, it’s obvious he means the Slayer, and not the series.

Okay, that’s weird.

From wiki, regarding the inspiration… “She was an adolescent girl finding out she has great power and dealing with it.”

So, the identifying details may have become Willow, but the thematic and emotional character became Buffy.

ETA: and yes, Joss’s longtime fandom of x-men plus the auteur cred he got from Buffy/Angel/Firefly got him the gig writing for x-men. (which was awesome, BTW.)

[silenus]

Whedon fans should definitely check out his run of Amazing X-Men. Good story, great dialog, and he handles the female characters like no-one else (there’s a surprise).

[gonzoron]

@silenus

Whedon fans should definitely check out his run of Amazing X-Men. Good story, great dialog, and he handles the female characters like no-one else (there’s a surprise).

That’s Astonishing X-men, unless he did another series I’m not aware of.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Ellis Dee

Logo is just about to the end of season 7 Buffy, and yeah, it’s not a great season. It does drag, there aren’t enough sets, and there aren’t enough monsters of the week. (Which is why there aren’t enough sets.) Compared to other Buffy, it feels claustrophobic, muted, and devoid of humor. Still pretty goood, though.

I’ve only watched the first two episodes of Buffy Season 7 and I’m already feeling the drag people are talking about. The scene between Spike and Buffy in the church is just painfully incoherent. I get that he’s a little insane right now, but there are much better ways to write insanity than how it has been done.

The humor is also… well, muted is a good word. It’s the difference between a chuckle and laughing out loud.

I am glad they are finally letting Dawn play an active role. She needed to be trained in combat the minute she first showed up. I look forward to seeing her development this year. Also want to see Willow come home.

The first episode of Angel Season 4, on the other hand, was pretty badass. The Angry Dad Speech Angel gave Connor was epic and completely true to character. And it was awesome to see Fred fly off the handle and go nuts with a taser.

I totally knew Cordy would be bored as hell on a higher plane of existence.

I’m guessing the sexual situation that people find so disturbing is Wes/Lila? If so, can’t blame you. If not, don’t tell me, but I can’t imagine much worse.

[gonzoron]

@olivesmarch4th

they’ve brought newcomers (Holtz, that chick who loves Holtz, Connor) who act so well that they really elevate the storyline even more. There’s not a single character that doesn’t seem entirely three-dimensional. I think Angel overall has more respect for its villains than Buffy, and it’s a difference I like.

Absolutely. As a longtime horror fan, I loved seeing the twist that the vampire hunter was the bad guy, and even better, to see him realized with such depth. It really gives a nice “what if?” spin on Dr. Van Helsing and the like.

And the progression of Wesley from cheesy insecure Watcher to… well, the dark soul he currently is has been really gradual and painstaking and therefore entirely believable.

This right here is my favorite part of Buffy and Angel, I think. Wesley’s slide from buffoonery to darkness and badassness.

After watching Buffy I got used to things being mostly resolved at the end of every Season. We stayed up late to watch the finale of Angel 'cuz I couldn’t stand the suspense, … If I’d have been watching it originally aired on TV I think I would have stuck my foot through the television set.

hehehehe… yeah, I thought the same thing. Thank goodness for reruns.

I understand Connor’s pissed off right now, but what he did to Angel is seriously evil.

Yup… I loved the way they did the “Andrew Keaton fast forward” (someone should add that to tvtropes. I couldn’t find an appropriate term there) without it being cheesy, taking advantage of the fantasy element to skip straight from the “wow, I’m a dad! What do I do?” phase to “(extremely) troubled teen” phase, and skipping the “cute precocious kid” phase.

And Wesley… Jesus Christ, are we losing all our characters? panic

Yup, all of them. For season 4, they actually changed the name of the show to “Fred & Gunn”

**I was thinking though, won’t Angel die after a matter of time without blood?

depends on the vampire mythos you follow. Many would say he’d just become a mindless ravening beast, or a decrepit lifeless (but revivable) husk.
(Leo Dilisnya from the Ravenloft D&D campaign setting was one of the former, for example).

@olivesmarch4th

Finished Buffy Season 6… I for one loved the whole thing.

Huzzah! ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

What I liked most about it is how all the expectations we’ve become accustomed to from previous seasons got turned on their heads.

• The “Big Bads” for the season are mostly ineffectual comic relief.
• When they finally do something that really does hurt the good guys, it’s a) completely by accident, and b) more damage done to the scoobies with a single bullet than any amount of magic or monsters ever did.
• The real threat turns out to be one of the “good” guys.
  best of all…
• Xander (yes, Xander, the “Zeppo”) saves the world!

I regret to inform all of you that due to my moronic investigation of spoiler boxes in this thread I assumed were ‘‘safe,’’…

D’oh! Label your spoilers, folks!

I told you guys I knew Dark Willow was coming!

yeah, I knew too and wish I didn’t. But ain’t she cool?

And of course WAHHH Tara. That moment at the end of Seeing Red was one of the most completely unexpected moments in the entire series. Like it really came right the fuck out of nowhere.

Yup, now think back to Tara’s comment in The Body. “It’s always sudden.” Did you notice that Seeing Red is the first episode with Tara in the opening credits? Cruel, Cruel, Joss. But the perfect way to send Willow believably over the edge.

My husband says Dark Willow reminds him of Dark Phoenix of the X-men. Me thinks Mr. Whedon is a comic book fan. My husband also says Angel is Batman with fangs.

correct on all counts.

I can’t wait to see the inevitable crossover with Angel.

I don’t think I’m spoiling anything to say that yes, this will be fun. And spike’s re-souling leads up to one of my fave exchanges in either series…

spoiler for Buffy’s series finale

Buffy: [about Spike] It’s different. He’s different. He has a soul now… What?
Angel: That’s great! Everyone’s got a soul now.
Buffy: He’ll make a difference.
Angel: You know, I started it. The whole having-a-soul. Before it was… all the cool new thing.
Buffy: Oh my god, are you twelve?

I know Season 4 of Angel is not universally liked, but people hated Season 6 of Buffy, too. I have to remain an optimist here.

would be interesting to see the correlation there. For example, I love both of them. Does liking B-S6 imply a good chance of liking A-S4?

[silenus]

@olivesmarch4th

I’m guessing the sexual situation that people find so disturbing is Wes/Lila? If so, can’t blame you. If not, don’t tell me, but I can’t imagine much worse.

That ain’t it. (And it’s Lilah.) That relationship is just fine. Kinky and disturbing, but fine.

(And it is Astonishing, not Amazing. My bad.)

[Justin_Bailey]

@gonzoron

Yup… I loved the way they did the “Andrew Keaton fast forward” (someone should add that to tvtropes. I couldn’t find an appropriate term there) without it being cheesy, taking advantage of the fantasy element to skip straight from the “wow, I’m a dad! What do I do?” phase to “(extremely) troubled teen” phase, and skipping the “cute precocious kid” phase.

There’s actually two (I apologize for anyone’s morning I’m about to kill):

Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome

Plot Relevant Age Up (which includes Connor in the examples)

[Justin_Bailey]

@gonzoron

would be interesting to see the correlation there. For example, I love both of them. Does liking B-S6 imply a good chance of liking A-S4?

That would be interesting. I may start that poll later today…

[Zsofia]

I’d forgotten how awesome Lilah was. God, I loved her.