So, is Zionism = racism?

The issue in the other thread did not deal with religious positions on Zionism. The issue there was whether the Irgun was conducting a legitimate rebellion against a colonial power, or a terrorist campaign targeting civilians. Another poster thought the latter, and felt they were comparable to contemporary Palestinian terrorist acts. I disagreed with this.

But that has nothing to do with the issue of whether, from a religious perspective, the Irgun was doing the proper thing by rebelling against the colonial power to begin with.

I urge everyone interested in this subject to read Israel’s and Arafats statements made at the conference:
http://aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Israels_Message_at_Durban.asp

mswas said:

…which is decidedly far removed from reality, in both appraisal and (deluded, American-centric) proposed resolution. You didn’t look at my link, did you?

But this thread is not about the UN, so I suggest we debate this further here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=83166

Perhaps you could help poor Tedster out.

Not really. But there is the Right of Return. Any Jewish person, anywhere in the world can go to Israel and become a citizen, get immediate entry and so on.

Li

Well, except Meyer Lansky…

I’m not interested in debating the debt, but you seem to enjoy not reading what I’ve posted so there is no point. As I said, it’s a stupid idea so we should pull out of the UN.

Erek

On the contrary, I’ve received lots of enjoyment out of reading what you’ve posted. This thread is about zionism, not the UN, and I don’t want to hijack it from an otherwise interesting debate. If you’re not interested in debating the US debt to the UN, start a new thread just on the purpose of the UN, or something. Re-iterate your views there, and be prepared to defend them.

Nahh, I said what I think. I saw some other viewpoints, it’s time to move onto some new threads for the new week.

Erek

Go to the West Bank; go to Gaza; go to Nazareth in Israel, a mostly Arab and Christian city. Walk the streets. Talk to the people. They will soon invite you to their homes. Listen as they describe their daily experiences. Then decide whether the system created by the Zionists is racist or not.

Yeah, well, being a member of a minority group sucks. It’s that way in every single country in the world, and there’s no easy solution to. It’s just the way the world works.In fact, that’s the whole point of the Zionist enterprise - to create just one place where Jews aren’t a minority group.

As for the West Bank and Gaza - convince us that the inhabitants of these places don’t want to destroy Israel, regardless of any deal we offer them, and we’ll treat them nicer. Because as things stand, we don’t believe they’ll ever be ready to make peace. So why should we be considerate to people who want us dead?

But hey… isn’t this a hijack?

And here is a non-mainstream account of the origins of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict:
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

Credit for finding these goes to GrossDad at the CyberSoapBox BBS.

I was going to complement your post with a link from an Arab peacenik website, but I can’t seem to find one.

If by “non-mainstream” you mean “radical left-wing” then yeah, that’s a good example. As I’m sure you know, in a society where freedom of speech is sacroscent and vigorous political discussion is encouraged, eventually someone will say anything. That’s the beauty of the democratic system.

Your link, though, means nothing. I could bring you three different links to ultra-right wing, Kahanistic websites contadicting everything written there, but to what avail? I believe you and I can handle this discussion quite well without citing the ramblings of fanatics.

Considering the pictures I’ve seen today of Palestinians dancing in the streets at the news of hundreds or thousands of innocents being murdered, I’m not really inclined to think too highly of them right now…

I’d just like to point out that Yasser Arafat himself led hundreds of Palestinians in donateing blood to be delivered to the U.S. Emabassy. Am fairly certain the story was at the NY Times website.

As has been pointed out in a more recent thread, the dancing Palestinians were likely a minority.

60 Minutes had a segment in which some Africans priests and Jewish rabbis, have similar DNA, as if they are direct cousins. And Mike Wallace was doing the segment. He must be a real anti-Semite.

You said that Eastern European Jews are nor or may not be descendants of the original Israelite Tribes, presumably a reference to the theory that those Jews are “really” Khazars. If Eastern European Jews and African Jews have related DNA, then the “Khazar” theory is FALSE, and the Ashkenazim (Eastern European Jews) are descendants of the original Israelite tribes from the Middle East. Of course, that “white” Jews from Europe and “black” Jews from Africa are in fact cousins shows just how silly the whole notion of “race” is.

What this refers to is the presence of a Y chromosome modal haplotype which is enriched in the patrimonial Jewish priestly caste (the Cohen Modal Haplotype) in a group in South Africa called the Lemba. The Lemba claim to be a lost tribe of Israel, having moved through the Hadramut in Yemen. While they have lost most of the laws of Judaism, they do retain some. It was unclear if these laws were assimilated or if they were from actual Jewish descent. Genetic testing shows that it is probable that they actually have some Jewish descent.

Here is a Nova article:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html

When I was in South Africa, I spoke to the chief rabbi of South Africa about the Lemba. He said while the genetics are convincing to a certain extent, their loss of most of the Jewish laws means that they cannot be classified as Jews. He said if he was to classify them as Jews, he would double the current Jewish population of South Africa (there are approximately 20,000 of each right now). By not classifying them as Jews, Israel does not have to offer right of return, unlike Beta Israel from Ethiopia (who retained a majority of Jewish traditions).

What I was saying ME was that the Israel state of today didn’t even admit that there were Black Jews in existence, at least any deserving the right of return, until the 1980’s.

Well, Capacitor, not entirely true. Israel didn’t recognize Beta Israel as Jews until recently, but it recognized that black Jews existed. Sammy Davis Jr. for example, would have had right of return.

The statement of yours which I originally objected to was:

(emphasis added)

Would you care to explain what you meant by the part I’ve italicized?