So, let's talk about that whole Veterans Health Administration thing

A few years ago, Paul Krugman wrote this:

I know about a health care system that has been highly successful in containing costs, yet provides excellent care. And the story of this system’s success provides a helpful corrective to anti-government ideology. For the government doesn’t just pay the bills in this system – it runs the hospitals and clinics.

No, I’m not talking about some faraway country. The system in question is our very own Veterans Health Administration, whose success story is one of the best-kept secrets in the American policy debate.

In the 1980’s and early 1990’s, says an article in The American Journal of Managed Care, the V.H.A. ‘‘had a tarnished reputation of bureaucracy, inefficiency and mediocre care.’’ But reforms beginning in the mid-1990’s transformed the system, and '‘the V.A.‘s success in improving quality, safety and value,’’ the article says, ‘‘have allowed it to emerge as an increasingly recognized leader in health care.’’

And also this:

Yes, this is “socialized medicine” … and suggests what it will take to solve the troubles of U.S. health care more broadly.

So there’s no doubt about it. The VHA is a fine, pristine example of what we ought to expect from socialized medicine. And how’s that working out? Well, some folks in the recent pit thread say they haven’t heard anything about the topic. So here are the some high points:

At least 40 U.S. veterans died waiting for appointments at the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, many of whom were placed on a secret waiting list. The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor, according to a recently retired top VA doctor and several high-level sources.

Internal e-mails obtained by CNN show that top management at the VA hospital in Arizona knew about the practice and even defended it. Dr. Sam Foote just retired after spending 24 years with the VA system in Phoenix. The veteran doctor told CNN in an exclusive interview that the Phoenix VA works off two lists for patient appointments: There’s an “official” list that’s shared with officials in Washington and shows the VA has been providing timely appointments, which Foote calls a sham list. And then there’s the real list that’s hidden from outsiders, where wait times can last more than a year.

“The scheme was deliberately put in place to avoid the VA’s own internal rules,” said Foote in Phoenix. “They developed the secret waiting list,” said Foote, a respected local physician. According to Foote, the elaborate scheme in Phoenix involved shredding evidence to hide the long list of veterans waiting for appointments and care. Officials at the VA, Foote says, instructed their staff to not actually make doctor’s appointments for veterans within the computer system. Instead, Foote says, when a veteran comes in seeking an appointment, “they enter information into the computer and do a screen capture hard copy printout. They then do not save what was put into the computer so there’s no record that you were ever here,” he said.

Okay, so we’ve got the federal government killing veterans by denying them care, lying, violating its own rules, and an devising an elaborate scheme to cover it all up. That’s at the Phoenix location. Is this an isolated incident?

Nope. Similar things have happened in Colorado. And Texas. And North Carolina. And Wyoming. And St. Louis. And Chicago.

And the government assures us that the revelations thus far are “the tip of the iceberg”. So apparently the VHA has been doing a lot of stuff that’s as bad or worse than this.

Needless to say, a lot of media coverage immediately delves into political implications and how much blame the Pres. deserves. And indeed, even though there’s been reporting on these issues for years, Obama has been forced to say yet again that he didn’t know what his own administration was doing until the media reported it to him, while even supporters are admitting that it’s hard to defend him on this one. But broadly this is more about government in general than about the actions of the President. As we’ve already seen, the VHA is touted by its fans as an example of the wonderful things that socialized medicine can achieve. And indeed, socialized health care systems in other countries have given people long waits for cancer treatment, huge waiting lists, restrictions on treatments, and falsifying records. And in Canada, with its true single-payer system, “The estimated cost of waiting for care in Canada for patients who were in the queue in 2011 was $1.08 billion—an average of about $1,144 for each of the estimated 941,321 Canadians waiting for treatment in 2011. This is a conservative estimate.”

In health care debates, we hear a lot of horror stories about what can happen to people when they can’t get insurance or get bad insurance in a private insurance market, and indeed bad things can happen. But we need to be honest about the bad things that can happen in a socialized system too.

Also in healthcare debates, we hear proposals to convert government run Medicare and Medicaid to voucher based systems and let the free market administer and deliver healthcare.

Serious question, has this ever been proposed for the VA? If no, why not?

Yes, by all means let’s be honest.

Let’s begin by not misrepresenting Krugman’s words.

Let’s privatize the VA then and give all the vets a Paul Ryan style voucher.

These 40 patients who died all had the option of getting care from a civilian hospital. Why didn’t they?

In response to the issue about Canada note that Canadians live longer but the Canadian health care system costs 2/3 or so that of the U.S. system.

I would guess that the Republicans who are talking about this the most are also the ones who cut Obama’s budget request–and fewer dollars are going to result in less services.

I have never come across a claim that a socialized system is perfect, either - only that it’s far better to have a system that is mandated to *provide *care rather than deny it, which should be obvious. Bad things can still happen, but as bugs, not features.

An advantage of a government-run system is that, when these bad things do happen and appear to be systemic, there can be a public outcry like the current one. In a more normal political climate than we have, the result can be and generally is that the system causes get fixed, and people get replaced if they need to be. A detriment of the approach is that identifying the causes can fall into the pit of partisan politics, like the current one, making true fixes harder to put into place.

Let’s hope the funding profile, and the patient-load profile, since the starts of the last couple of wars is part of the investigation, and that funding and management are aligned more appropriately than they apparently have. Let’s also hope that a few people at working level, trying to cope with a patient burden and resource limitations that often makes it impossible to get an appointment made in less than 14 days, aren’t being scapegoated for a situation imposed upon them from much higher up.

[Quote=ITR Champion]
And indeed, socialized health care systems in other countries have given people long waits for cancer treatment…
[/quote]

A single line in the linked article, with no statistics, no attribution and no context.

Article does not give any idea what specific treatments are wait-listed, but does say that although numbers of wait-listed patients are up, waiting times are stable. I guess we are also to assume that there is no such thing as waiting for medical treatment in the US, right?

NHS determines that a breast cancer treatment that costs an average of 90,000 Pounds is ineffective. Sounds like they are doing us a favor. Also, do insurance companies in the US pay for any old treatment one gets a notion to try?

Based on the table in the linked paper, it’s $11,440, actually, isn’t it? Also, again, is there no such thing as waiting for treatment in the US?

Anyway, the OP apparently wants to argue that the VHA ahould be abolished. Perhaps he will grace us with a summary of a viable alternative.

Perhaps because the VHA wouldn’t pay for it?

Or maybe because when a person is seriously injured and desperately in need of care, it’s difficult to shop around and critically evaluate all the options?

Whatever the reason, we can’t ask them, since they’re dead.

(And keep in mind, it’s 40 deaths at one location. If the mortality rate nationwide was in the same ballpark, we’ll certainly be looking at a death toll in the thousands.)

Give us a better cite, will ya?

Sweden kicks the USA’s ass in terms of cancer mortality. 92 per 100,000 compared to over 100 per 100,000 in the USA. Surely the waiting lists can’t be that bad

EDIT: Oh, and one more thing? You’ll be happy to learn that the article you link to actually blames free market reforms for the worsening of the system in Sweden. Things were better back when the state was more involved, according to your own cite.

Well, yes. There can be public outcry. The system can get fixed. But as I noted, the problems have been in the news for years without any apparent fixes coming forward. Worldwide, governments that do little to fix their own problems seem to be more the exception than the rule, even among democracies.

The advantage of a free market system is that if you learn that your insurance company is denying coverage, imposing absurdly long waits, lying and covering up its own policies, you can switch to a different company. If your government-run system does these things, you have no choice short of leaving the country.

I certainly hope so too, but I’m not terribly optimistic. The basic rule for dealing with this kind of scandal, once the cover-up fails, is to try pinning the blame as far down the chain of command as possible.

Uh, no, it does not. It does not give any comparison of Sweden’s health care system before and after the free market reforms.

Much like the “ponzi element” of Social Security, where Krugman errs is apparently deflected as misrepresentation. Can we absolve Bush for WMD’s too?

First off, I’ve worked in health care for many years, in Europe, and I have no idea what a “socialized system” is. We normally divide health care delivery systems into four categories, Beveridge, Bismarck, NHI and out of pocket. The term “socialized system” is something I’ve only heard from Americans, and no-one has ever explained what it means.

I suspect it doesn’t mean anything at all.

Second, the Frazier institude is among your links. Clean it up please.

Third, and most pertinent: You are stating things like “The VHA is a fine, pristine example of what we ought to expect from socialized medicine., And indeed, socialized health care systems in other countries have given people long waits for cancer treatment, huge waiting lists, restrictions on treatments", and falsifying records.

And you haven’t actually supported that with anyhing.

First off, how many people who are not in the VHA system die waiting for treatment? How does it compare to Medicare, private insurance, the uninsured, medicaid? Are those numbers better or worse? Do you know?

What is socialized medicine, and why do you think the VA is like what you can expect with it? Are you trying to move in that direction?

Your links don’t support your statements. Does other countries have long waits for cancer treatment? Your links only compare countries with themselves. So waiting lists in the UK are the longest in 5 years? You’re saying that is a huge wait, why? How long were they five years ago, and how does that compare to US waiting lists? You have a link saying that waiting lists for cancer treatement in Sweden can be up to a year, but nothing on whether that is longer or shorter than in the US. And nothing on what kind of cancers it is. And you are using a link from the US to support your statement on how things happen in other countries. And you have a link on a drug which were not found effective enough being rejected by the NHS, which sounds eminently sensible.

In short, this is just an unsupported mess of statements, with links that do not support them at all.

Are the numbers from the VA better or worse than the numbers from other US systems, or foreign systems? Is there a reason why you figure the VHA is representative of other nations systems? What is “socialized health care systems” ?

Are waits in other countries longer or shorter than in the US? How does this vary between US healthcare systems? Are these waits different between different levels of patient urgency (hint: yes).

You’re also going to need to compare to an average, or several countries. If you find several countries where you can beat each on one single measurement, all youve shown is that you’re second worst on the world on a lot of measures.

The fact is that the US spends a lot more money on healthcare than any other nation and the results are in the bottom 25 % of the developed world. This does not support the notion that other countries have worse healthcare systems.

I have not defended Krugman, nor called for his “absolution,” whatever the fuck that means, nor made any argument whatsoever.

I merely ask for the OP to adhere to his own standards of honest discourse.

(Of course, if you sincerely believe that what Krugman said is accurately summarized by “the VHA is a fine, pristine example of what we ought to expect from socialized medicine,” then I suppose that’s your prerogative. But you’d be wrong.)

Hmmm. I’ll quote for you.

It seems quite obvious to me that the article links the inefficiency of the system to recent cuts. And in any case, that story about people waiting a year for cancer treatment still doesn’t have a cite.

You really have no clue on how much effort is spent on keeping healthcare systems efficient in the developed world?

Actually, if a government-controlled system does this, you can go to a private provider in the same city. And in some nation have them send the bill to the government system. It sounds like you think other nations are all North Korea.

On the flip side, if your free market insurance drags its feat about providing expensive care, is there a government system you can try? Bcause the insurance system, unlike the public system has a huge economic interest in you dying before becoming expensive. Most likly, you’ll neither swich provider nor badmouth them because you’ll be dead.

Anyway, you don’t normally compare and contrast prices and treatments when deathly ill. It is known as a “low price elasticity service”. That is part of why healthcare is considered unsuited to market provision.

First off, I’ve worked in health care for many years, in Europe, and I have no idea what a “socialized system” is. We normally divide health care delivery systems into four categories, Beveridge, Bismarck, NHI and out of pocket. The term “socialized system” is something I’ve only heard from Americans, and no-one has ever explained what it means.

I suspect it doesn’t mean anything at all.

Second, the Frazier institude is among your links. Clean it up please.

Third, and most pertinent: You are stating things like “The VHA is a fine, pristine example of what we ought to expect from socialized medicine., And indeed, socialized health care systems in other countries have given people long waits for cancer treatment, huge waiting lists, restrictions on treatments", and falsifying records.

And you haven’t actually supported that with anyhing.

First off, how many people who are not in the VHA system die waiting for treatment? How does it compare to Medicare, private insurance, the uninsured, medicaid? Are those numbers better or worse? Do you know?

What is socialized medicine, and why do you think the VA is like what you can expect with it? Are you trying to move in that direction?

Your links don’t support your statements. Does other countries have long waits for cancer treatment? Your links only compare countries with themselves. So waiting lists in the UK are the longest in 5 years? You’re saying that is a huge wait, why? How long were they five years ago, and how does that compare to US waiting lists? You have a link saying that waiting lists for cancer treatement in Sweden can be up to a year, but nothing on whether that is longer or shorter than in the US. And nothing on what kind of cancers it is. And you are using a link from the US to support your statement on how things happen in other countries. And you have a link on a drug which were not found effective enough being rejected by the NHS, which sounds eminently sensible.

In short, this is just an unsupported mess of statements, with links that do not support them at all.

Are the numbers from the VA better or worse than the numbers from other US systems, or foreign systems? Is there a reason why you figure the VHA is representative of other nations systems? What is “socialized health care systems” ?

Are waits in other countries longer or shorter than in the US? How does this vary between US healthcare systems? Are these waits different between different levels of patient urgency (hint: yes).

You’re also going to need to compare to an average, or several countries. If you find several countries where you can beat each on one single measurement, all youve shown is that you’re second worst on the world on a lot of measures.

The fact is that the US spends a lot more money on healthcare than any other nation and the results are in the bottom 25 % of the developed world. This does not support the notion that other countries have worse healthcare systems.

“Former military service members using Department of Veterans Affairs hospitals are just as happy with their care as patients using private medical clinics, according to a leading customer-satisfaction survey.
The American Customer Satisfaction Index for 2013 shows that the VA health network, which serves more than 8 million veterans, achieved marks equal to or better than those in the private sector.”
"The health system earned overall satisfaction indexes of 84 for inpatient care and 82 for outpatient services, while the U.S. hospital industry earned scores of 80 and 83 in those categories, respectively.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2014/04/17/va-hospitals-on-par-with-private-sector-for-patient-satisfaction/"

As reported last month.

Ahh OP. Beware.

The long knives are out for you.

Did they poll the dead guys?