So my roommate and I are arguing about the draft...

[Askia]

As Fear Itself and Martin Hyde have pointed out, the government has the legal right to conscript its citizens, and has gotten citizen resistence in every war prior to Vietnam. The citizens least able to mount a defense against a draft, the people who would garner the least sympathy from the general populace, would be prisoners. They have no right to vote, no likely claims to conscientious objector status or, bluntly, much else to offer. kanicbird rightly points out that prisoners cost a lot. Well, maybe you can take the most promising of them and make them into soldiers.

@xtisme

Unwilling, unskilled and probably more dangerous to our side than the enemy. Not to mention the fact that Republicans aren’t exactly know for their high opinions of criminals/prisoners. A chain gang? Yeah, I could see some Republicans thinking wistfully about it. But to defend the nation? Not likely.

I’m not suggesting it’s likely, just that it’s not completely without some merit. I’ve made the assumption that in a population group of roughly 2.5 million people, you could probably find 10% of them – quite minimally – willing to fight, willing to accept skilled training and are no more dangerous to our side than any other indoctrined combatant. Prison life is quasi-military anyway, far more than civililans: you wear a uniform, in a heirarchy of authority lacking women, in a controlled environment enforcing strict rules, timetables for wake-up, roll calls, activity, liberty and meals, spartan living conditions, with barracks and guards, in a culture designed to keep you physically fit. Military conditioning has been used in Pennsylvania boot camps for close to a decade now and its parolees have less recidivism, and commit less crimes, than those coming from traditional prisons.

You can minimize any danger to our side by keeping prison conscripts primarily in segregated units until they can be introduced into standard military units, based on merit.

Monty’s points are well-considered, but aren’t all that insurmountable. The military doesn’t accept individuals with felony convictions – so you start with the ones eligible for a waiver. The military kicks out people who get into trouble with drugs, and they should do so here as well. The military doesn’t want a general draft – but they will accept one if so ordered. And finally, if all branches of service met November active-duty recruiting goals, this might help insure that they continue to do so.

Again, I agree with the prevailing sentiment that I don’t think any kind of draft is very likely, just that a prisoner draft is somewhat more likely to happen than an open draft. Besides, we’ve seen the “Dirty Dozen” movies. It’s not like prisoner-soldiers are completely unheard of.

[AHunter3]

Anyone who thinks the reinstatement of the draft is right around the corner just doesn’t understand the lyrics “Be all that you can be”.

[ITR_champion]

@Monty

For yet another, the military doesn’t want a draft. And finally, All branches of service met November active-duty recruiting goals

The Army has not met any real recruitment goals for a long time. Their original goal was to recruit 82,000 people in fiscal 2005. For the first few months, they fell far short of their goal, by as much as thirty percent. So what did they do? They lowered their goals, so that they could make false claims about “meeting their goals”. Total recruitment for fiscal 2005 was way short of the original figure for 2005.

Consider this. Recruitment goal for fiscal 2006 is 80,000 people. Your cite informs us that the Army got 5,856 people in the last month. Multiply 5,856 by 12 and see how that number compares to 80,000. Not so well. I’ve got a funny feeling that the Army will once again end up quietly readjusting its recruitment goals and then trying to fool us into believing that they “met their recruitment goals”.

Army Meets a Recruitment Goal

http://www.refuseandresist.org/police_state/art.php?aid=18401

[iamthewalrus_3]

@kanicbird

Prisoners cost $$$$$, much more then they produce.

I assume that’s directed at the concept of the “prison industrial complex”, but it’s faulty logic. Sure, it costs the government a lot to keep prisoners. But the corporations running the prisons are making a profit. And those who contract for prison labor are basically getting slave labor contracted from the government.

Of course, the extent to which this is as lucrative and insidious a system as the OP suggests is beyond the scope of this hijack.

[Steve_MB]

@Sage Rat

Did no one ever take the governments’ right to draft to the Supreme Court? Out of our supposed rights to “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” I can’t think of a one it doesn’t violate.

There were a number of challenges over the years. The courts rejected the challenges on the ground that the power to raise and support armies includes the power to conscript people into them. While this reasoning is clearly spurious (the government also has the recited powers to punish counterfeiting and protect inventions; however, nobody has ever suggested that it can compel people to work for the Secret Service or the Patent Office), it sufficed for the purpose of letting the courts evade the issue.

[Ravenman]

Look, this draft talk has always been nonsense, and it is pretty clear that it is only rising in the conspiracy theory hall of fame.

Just last week the press started carrying stories that the Pentagon is looking at downsizing the number of troops. If someone can square how the military is going to reduce the number of troops it has but also institute the draft, be my guest, because it doesn’t make a lick of sense to me.

And the idea that we’re going to start conscripting prisoners is just dumb. In what universe are we going to turn over our military to drug dealers, rapists, murders, or theives?

[Martin_Hyde]

I should also point out that conscripts aren’t in general bad soldiers. In countries where there is a long tradition of mandatory military service for EVERYONE at a certain age, it tends to go over better. People growing up recognize it’s going to happen, and basically look at it like they would paying taxes. They know it’s coming, recognize the necessity, and try to just live it as a life experience.

The reason the draft gets people riled up so much in America is we have long periods where no one is expected to join the military and then brief ones where people are forced. It’s a sort of cultural shock to many Americans and since it is always done in response to a specific war instead of just a general need to maintain a standing Army, anytime the war has opposition (read: all wars, some more than others) it just multiplies the angst involved.

[NurseCarmen]

Highly unlikely, and that is why we see NKorea and Iran acting all blustery, they know we aren’t stupid enough to open another front.

or are we?

[msmith537]

@Martin Hyde

He says: It’s only a matter of time before this administration re-introduces the draft, pre-Vietnam era standards, to the general population, to build up the army.

Unlikely, as it would be political suicide for the Republicans.

@Martin Hyde

I says: Hold up. Now, a draft might come, but they’d never get the draft re-introduced to mainstream America after 30 years. There’s just waaaay too much opposition, even if it’s not organized. I could see more aggressive recruiting easy. But if they just want to draft people, they’d probably get prisoners in exchange for reduced sentences for a successful tour of service.

You are correct. IIRC, there was a great deal of initial support for 'Nam. It was only after several years did support wane.

@Martin Hyde

He says: the prison industrial complex ain’t gonna let prisoners go nowhere. All that cheap labor just going free? Off to war? To die? You don’t kill a cash cow. You don’t train black men to kill and hand them a gun. No, They’d ramp up the patriotism and the necessity of the draft. They would just send a letter saying, “Join up” and they’d join up.

There is no such thing as the “prison industrial complex” in the sense your friend is thinking of. Even military industrial complex is a stupid and provocative term that implies a monolithic entity There are multiple companies in the defense industry. Many of them have other products they sell to other customers (like Boeing). It’s like saying there’s some monolithic Anime/videogame/techno music complex.

@Martin Hyde

I says: you act like there’s a finite number of prisoners to choose from. The prison system in the country can always get more men in jail. Most people are in over bullshit drug charges. Just step up focus on deadbeat dads who don’t pay child support. Get the new batch in after the first batch goes off to war…

Or lazy, spoiled Gen-Y types who sit around watching Adult Swim and listening to their iPod until 3:00am. That’ll thin out their ranks.

@Martin Hyde

What’s likeiler? A nationwide draft or a draft of the prison population?

Both are unlikely.

[Martin_Hyde]

I think you’re misquoting. What you’ve quoted is the OP, not me.

[Askia]

Misquoted in my own thread. Shame, shame.

[Saint_Cad]

Part of being in the military is following rules. Often stupid rules. Without question.

Criminals flash a big middle finger to society rules like “don’t steal” and “don’t hurt other people”.

Somehow I don’t see the two worlds getting along.

[alphaboi867]

@Fear Itself

Yes, the Supreme court considered the legality of the military draft in 1918, in [Arver v. United States](Arver v. United States). Short answer: the draft is legal, and not unconstitutional.

What about sex discrimination? Since 1918 courts have interpreted the 14th amendmant as giving men and women equal rights. An all-male draft wouldn’t work anymore. Have there been any challenges to SS registration based on sex disrimination yet?

[What_Exit]

I may have missed it, but everyone does realize they use to offer minor offenders in many cases the options to join a services rather than go to jail?

I had a Chief that was given such a choice. He made a career out of it and did very well. As he was in about 20 years at the time, his offer came around 1966-68 time period.

So potential prisoners, especially first time offenders could make a good ‘forced’ recruitment pool again.

Just another possibility Askia.

Jim

[Sage_Rat]

@Martin Hyde

And in the concluding paragraph of the decision:

The final paragraph appears to me as the kicker for justification: The representatives of the people voted for war, ergo the people wanted to go to war. If they want to go to war, then we’re going to send 'em.

Anyways, we now return to your regularly scheduled debate. Thanks for the info.

[Saint_Cad]

@alphaboi867

What about sex discrimination? Since 1918 courts have interpreted the 14th amendmant as giving men and women equal rights. An all-male draft wouldn’t work anymore. Have there been any challenges to SS registration based on sex disrimination yet?

OOhhh OOhhhh!! I know this one because I cited it in a paper I wrote on the segregation of special education students.

Rostker v. Goldberg (1981)

The basis of the decision was that men and women are not “similarly situated” in regards to the draft - particularly because of combat duty restrictions. Justices Marshall and White dissented indicating that women could be drafted for non-combat duty.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@Fear Itself

Yes, the Supreme court considered the legality of the military draft in 1918, in [Arver v. United States](Arver v. United States). Short answer: the draft is legal, and not unconstitutional.

1918 is not 2005/2006.

The Justices on the bench in 1918 were products of the Post-Civil War Era, in their 60s-70-s, & were raised by people who had served, or at least were surrounded by them while they grew up. And mass extermination of Native Americans was regarded as “progress”. :smack:

The current Court is the product of a very different culture. Different conclusions could be reached.

Also, the nature of War has changed. A strong back & a weak brain don’t cut it anymore, not even in the Infantry. Draftees are no longer practical. The military needs to be able to pick & choose.

[Slithy_Tove]

What about the “Back Door Draft?”

This is how kids who can’t find decent jobs, can’t raise money for advanced education, or recognize that if they continue down the road they’re going, they’ll wind up in jail.

They don’t need a judge to offer them the choice, as of old, of “Army, Navy, or Jail:” they themselves have already recognized those are their only options (thereby passing the intelligence test that today’s military requires).

The key to the back door draft is the continued surplus of young men. You can argue that the Democrats’ welfare policies created this, or the Republicans’ non-trickling-down capitalism, but there’ll always be a cream floating on this reservoir of guys who are too smart and too decent-hearted to fall into crime; or guys like Abraham Lincoln during the Blackhawk War or myself during the Cold War, who, as Lincoln put it, “simply had nothing better to do.”

And anyway, if we draft guys from prison, we’d also have to draft guys from the upper class. Like Hell that’ll happen!

[AHunter3]

@Slithy Tove

What about the “Back Door Draft?”

This is how kids who can’t find decent jobs, can’t raise money for advanced education, or recognize that if they continue down the road they’re going, they’ll wind up in jail.

They don’t need a judge to offer them the choice, as of old, of “Army, Navy, or Jail:” they themselves have already recognized those are their only options (thereby passing the intelligence test that today’s military requires).

Yep, like I said. *

[AHunter3]

<ahem>

Like I said: BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE. An opportunity-cut here, a door closed there, and hey guess what, under many circumstances it’s all you can be…