So tell me a bit about Zen Buddhism

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m agnostic and am not in any way looking for anything theistic in my life. On the other hand, I think I’m much too negative and could stand some self-improvement. Somebody made a kind of off-hand comment in the “have you been three religions?” thread about Zen Buddhism being “mystical and rigorous”, which engaged my curiosity, so I did some reading and find it intriguing.

There’s evidently a local center (and on looking at their website while I can’t find a picture I suspect a guy who used to come into the library all the time and was a gentle, peaceful soul with an obviously ceremonial-looking thing around his neck may be the head honcho over there) but I don’t want to waste their time without hearing more people’s experiences of it. Of course there’s plenty to read online, but that doesn’t tell you much about actual people’s actual practice.

So, what’s your experience with Zen Buddhism? If you consider yourself a follower, do you do sitting meditation daily? Attend things? Is it all woo-woo and shit, or what? What kinds of people are Zen Buddhists? (Crystal healing vibrations ladies and martial arts scrawny guys in Japanese 101? Because I took two years of Japanese and those guys can be really obnoxious.) How did you decide it was for you, if it was for you?

2

Funny you should ask. Lately I’ve been contemplating a similar idea - I could use a “religion” or philosophy of living that encourages me to practice useful behaviors actively and in a structured way.

The reason I started with Zen is because a lot of this came up during my Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction class, which is completely secular, but takes a lot from Zen, most notably daily meditation and informal mindfulness throughout the day.

I think there is a lot of religious, spiritual, and just plain nonsense talk attached to Buddhism though. I’m not sure I’d ever be able to read the texts without spraining my eye-rolling muscles. I also disagree with some tenets such as no harm to other creatures (if we must kill some things to live, there must be a less bright-line rule), no alcohol, and the idea that a monastic life is the pinnacle of the practice.

So I glommed together some things I like from Buddhism and some things I like from Taoism, and I’ve got a list of behaviors I think are beneficial to happiness, contentment, and well-being. They are Compassion, Humility, Acceptance (seeing things as they are), Moderation, and Presence (mindfulness, meditation). They even fit into a handy mnemonic: CHAMP, which my husband says should be CHAMPS, with Sex being the final foundation of my philosophy. :smiley: (I actually kind of agree!)

I will probably get involved with a Zen group just to have a group to meditate with regularly, but that won’t happen till my kids are older and I have more free time.

Duke Integrative Medicine (which offers the MBSR class) also has day-long retreats periodically that I will definitely attend. And they are non-religious - it’s just mindfulness.

3

Try reading Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind and see how you like it.

4

Oh yeah, I am not giving up meat. (Anyway, unless you grow your food yourself you’re probably eating vegetables harvested in combination with the slaughter of bazillion of little field animals. Not to mention that unless you’re a fruitivore you’re going to kill something, and who are you to say that if a chicken’s life matters then a spinach plant’s doesn’t?)

Or drinking. No ethical reason, I just see no reason to give up something I enjoy in moderation.

5

I started in Zen when I found a book in a New Age bookshop. It didn’t say it as a Zen book, and I didn’t actually realise it was for several years. I didn’t even understand most of what it was saying, but I found it really intriguing and exciting. I was looking for Answers, and the book seemed to have them, even if I couldn’t understand them.

My practice is mostly a solitary experience. I meditate most days, from 5-30 minutes depending on what I feel like. Sometimes I go to meetings or retreats with other people. Even then, the focus is more on everyone doing their own practise rather than a group activity. There is usually some chanting, and then we meditate as a group, then chant some more, and meditate some more. It’s quite solemn, peaceful and formal. Sometimes more solemn than I can take. The teacher might give a talk, or you can talk to them. There is no woo, unless you count meditation itself.

I still eat meat myself, but on retreats and such the food is vegetarian. My impression is that the rules, such as they, are a personal thing for you, not something you will be passed or failed on.

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So can I ask what you feel you’re getting out of it? Balance? Enlightenment?

Do you feel there’s a “community” factor to it, although your practice is largely solitary?

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Well, I got my Answers, about truth, self, god, etc. On a more day-to-day level I get clarity and stability. Meditation reminds me to be aware, open and kind.

I’m not a very social person, but I do like knowing there are other people who do the same things I do, and I’m not just going crazy on my own. I think maybe Zen is less of a social experience than some other types of churches. Although, it would probably be a lot more social if I attended a regular sitting group.

One of the Three Jewels of Buddhism is Sangha, the community of monks and nuns. Some Westerners use Sangha to mean all Buddhist practitioners. The idea is that other people on the path help you find your way. The idea of community is fundamental, but so is the necessity of finding your own path.

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Hi. I’m a Buddhist who might possibly identify as a Zen Buddhist. About eight years ago I decided Zen Buddhism was my preferred brand of Buddhism because not only is it wildly irreverent, but because neither dogma nor the concept of guilt have a place on the meditation cushion.

I haven’t meditated in a long time (hence the caveat). When I did, I practiced shikanataza meditation, which means ‘‘just sitting.’’ Some people do lovingkindness or breathing meditation, but shikantaza really just means you sit your ass down for no specific purpose whatsoever and pay attention to what comes up.

The purpose of Zen is to cut through the mental bullshit and experience life directly. We all within us have this sense of Who We Are, this mental narrative that defines our experience, and Zen teaches that this narrative is ultimately what causes us to suffer. Zen practice is about learning to observe your thoughts and environment without judging them, becoming overly attached to them, or convinced they have special meaning.

I feel very strongly that Zen is not mystical. In fact I think viewing Zen as mystical is to miss the point entirely.

An illustrative story. Back when I was a regular meditation practitioner, I was walking down the street when I had a very powerful vision completely out of the blue. I imagined going into a temple and speaking with a monk who exhibited nothing but pure compassion. I was so overwhelmed by the monk’s compassion that I could not speak; instead I only wept. And I mean I wept right there as I walked down the street.

I later went to an online sangha (that’s the Buddhist community) and described my experience – what could it mean?

Every person who replied said the same thing. This is a common experience for Zen practitioners… it even had a name which I forget. Everyone in the sangha agreed that it doesn’t mean anything significant and should be treated like everything else in Zen – just an observed experience. So after having one of the most (I thought) profound experiences of my life, the overwhelming consensus by the board (some of whom were Zen teachers) was that it was basically an unimportant by-product of meditation that was best ignored.

This is not mysticism. This is rather a radical grounding in reality. There is a reason people get hit with sticks so many times in traditional Zen tales. A student is feeling all mystical and invincible until his master helpfully reminds him with a well-aimed thwack! that life is full of suffering, and suddenly the student is back to square one. Zen holds nothing sacred; it is the great equalizer.

I don’t know what your background is on Buddhism, but to understand Zen it helps to understand Buddhism, more generally. Two key concepts in Buddhism (and heavily emphasized in Zen IME) are impermanence and equanimity. Impermanence meaning the ever-changing nature of all things and equanimity its logical counterpoint – the interconnectedness of all beings.

If every moment reality changes, if every moment your body’s cells die and come to life, if every moment you have an experience that alters your perception of the world, then it becomes clear that this sense of ‘‘you,’’ this person you perceive yourself to be, is actually just a narrow misconception. Buddhism means to put you in touch with the fullness of your being, not just this empty and limited sense of ‘‘me’’ that you obsess over day and night. You might be currently manifesting as a person, but in a few hundred years parts of you will be manifesting as dirt and trees and whatever else happens when bodies decompose. In No Death, No Fear, Thich Nhat Hahn emphasizes this point nicely when he describes all the universe as a vast ocean. Right now you are manifest as a wave. You look at yourself in the mirror and you say, ‘‘I am me. I am a wave,’’ but in doing so you negate the larger truth – you are the ocean. We are all the ocean.

That means when we show compassion for other beings, we’re showing compassion for our Self. It’s not compassion in the traditional sense but really the ultimate form of Self interest. Killing things is discouraged in part because it perpetuates the delusion that the thing you’re killing is separate from you. Alcohol is discouraged because it’s harder to pay attention when we’re drunk. These rules are really just common sense extensions of these basic tenets, but as Weedy mentions, there isn’t exactly a '‘more Buddhist than thou’ concept driving these ideas.

This is getting long so I’ll add more later.

9

I nervously e-mailed the Columbia Zen Buddhist Priory this morning. The way this usually goes is that I screw up my nerve to go present myself to a stranger in a strange place to do a strange thing and they never read their email or are defunct or just plain never get back to me. So we’ll see.

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I’m Buddhist , there are plenty of Buddhists who eat meat and drink alcohol. One thing good about Buddhism is there is not a lot of emphasis placed on giving up things.

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I practice Theravada, not Zen, but for the purposes of this thread it doesn’t make much difference.

We in the west are, to a large extent, reinventing Buddhism to suit ourselves. This is a perfectly acceptable and respectable thing: all existing Buddhism is a reinvention. Theravada is probably the closest to the Buddha’s original teachings, but I don’t know anyone so courageous as to go out on a limb and say how close that might be. The importance of this is that I don’t think it is advisable to try to adhere too closely to the Asian lineages. Use them for instruction and guidance, to be sure, but don’t make them your dogma. A lot of Buddhists believe a lot of stupid things; it is not up to you to perpetuate those. Buddhism is not supposed to be a dogmatic religion, and anyone who begins to treat is as such is missing the point.

The Buddha taught suffering, and the end of suffering. That was his whole reason for teaching, and it is the reason his teachings are worth following. Actually, it would be more correct to replace “suffering” with “dissatisfaction.” It isn’t all about sores, boils, atrocities, and death. It’s also being stuck in traffic, or being constipated, or having your work disrupted by a fire drill. Buddhism offers a way to at least lessen the annoyances of life. Some people are more successful at this than others, but any progress is better than none. It is also something that requires continual effort. When I don’t meditate for a while, I find myself going back to my old habits. And it is very difficult to maintain a meditation practice on your own, so finding a group is important.

There no law in Buddhism that says you have to be a vegetarian, or not kill other sentient beings (which is to say, animals), or not drink. These are a couple of the 5 lay precepts, but a precept is not a commandment. It is at least important, though, that you pay attention to what you are doing, and to what it is doing to you. You can get any number of takes on this sort of thing, depending on who you talk to/read, but what action you decide to take is up to you.

You will probably run up against problems having to do with karma and rebirth. These concepts are tightly woven into Buddhism, for better or worse, and in order to be a Buddhist you really have to reach some sort of accommodation with them. My own approach is to agree with the minute-to-minute interpretation, which is basically that every moment is a rebirth, and can be characterized by dependent origination; I do not, and cannot, subscribe the the idea of a literal rebirth. I don’t think this sort of thing should get in the way. Again, the goal of Buddhism is the end of suffering, and I see no problem in believing that the present life is the only one there is to worry about.

The Buddhists I know are pretty down-to-earth people. They are earnest in their practice, but they are not whack jobs. You can easily find people who decide to augment their Buddhism with a bunch of other things, from theosophy to the use of hallucinogens, but these are not the norm, in my experience. Some people, once they start “seeking,” just seem to have to go on doing it, but most of the Buddhists I know are quite content with the teachings of the Buddha. And I can assure you, the Buddha was not a flake.

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I’m finding this fascinating reading - thanks for starting this thread!

And I’m realizing that I probably painted a picture of Buddhism that made it sound way more dogmatic than it is. It sounds like Zen in particular is flexible enough that my approach would probably still fall under its umbrella.

For me, the issue of “suffering” is definitely one of the most compelling things. I feel that desire is the source of suffering in the sense that we tend to believe that attaining X or holding on to Y will deliver happiness, and that without X or Y we can’t be happy. But even if they bring enjoyment, they don’t bring lasting contentment, and that is really tough to handle when you’ve set all your happiness on that thing. Release from suffering involves giving up these pathological attachments and being present in the current moment.

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In Tibetan Buddhism you are supposed to question things - you are not just supposed to blindly follow what you hear or read. In fact that was one big thing Buddha said = “Don’t follow what I say just because I say it , make sure you check it out first”

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Thanks, but one thing I never understood about Zen: your “enlightenment” is supposed to come, like a bolt out of the blue (according to T.D. Suzuki). That is, I understand that it has nothing to do with your own efforts-it just happens.
Since you are unable to positively afect your enlightenment, does it matter how often you meditate? I myself would like to experience satori-but I am put off by long meditation sessions-I just can’t do it. If I went to a Zen monastery, I’d wind up getting whacked a lot.
I know meditation demands effort-is there any hope for me?

15

I think different traditions have different definitions of enlightenment, and for naturalistic Zen, it can just mean, “Being truly aware.” And that can be approached or achieved by practicing mindfulness meditation. Which is a conundrum, because it can feel like a lot of effort - like the hardest thing you’ve ever done - and yet is all about not-doing and letting go.

If you are put off by long sitting sessions, you can try 15 minutes, and see how it goes. Do you find your problems with it to be physical, mental, or both?

For what it’s worth, my teacher always said of meditation: “You don’t have to like it, you just have to do it.”

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Everything I read about Zen inspires in me the thought, “Yeah, I get that.” Then I continue about whatever business I was about.

What do you folks get out of meditation?

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You are asking for the unexplainable to be explained…you know that, right? Let’s go with, all things are…Don’t over intellectualize. That isn’t zen.

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(If that was addressed to the OP and not to me, then the following should be ignored…)

Avoiding overintellectualization is fine. How about avoiding overmeditation?

And, if that’s fine, how about avoiding meditation?

(What’s the difference between meditating and not meditating, anyway?)

19

Frylock, for me, meditating is trying to focus my mind on the present moment, and observing all that is in that moment. Benefits include:
-Realizing how freaking noisy my mind is and how many counterproductive thoughts I have
-Getting distance from said thoughts - when you focus and observe with a non-judging consciousness, you realize “I am not my thoughts.”
-Experiencing life for the first time. Seriously, I have always gone through life absorbed with the future - five minutes or five years ahead, not ever really experiencing what is happening to me.
-I’m ever so much more patient and tranquil now that I have the foundation for being mindful in my day to day life. Meditation is like lifting weights to help you in a sport - the more you practice, the better you are at letting go and letting be in your active life.

That’s just a few of the things I get from it.

But I agree, there is a time for intellectualizing, a time for planning for the future, a time for doing, as well as a time for not-doing. Again, this is why moderation is something I felt I needed to focus on.

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Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates.