Israel got it’s start through war and massive immigration. How did the U.N. help with that?
“The West” did not create Israel.
Other, perhaps, than by attempting to exterminate the Jews in that part of “the West” that consists of continental Europe overrun by the Nazis, which inspired massive Jewish immigration to anywhere that would take them …
To which the rest of “the West” proved to be, shall we say, less than welcoming - so convincing many Jews that, if they were to be safe, they had to adopt European style ethno-nationalism and create a country of their own.
Such nationalism was directly contrary, it may be added, to the wishes of “the West” in the form of the British, who attempted - without success - to prevent Jewish immigration from war-torn Europe to what was to become Israel.
I suggest reading up on how Israel got its start … the UN had precious little to do with it.
The original UN plan was to partition the land. The rejection of this plan (by the Arabs) led to a major war which the UN was unable to prevent, and which the Israelis won. The historical lesson here appears to be not to rely on the UN.
A lesson re-enforced subsequently (see, for example, the disgraceful behaviour of the UN in withdrawing its peacekeeping forces seperating the Egyptian and Israeli armies at the insistance of Nasser prior to the 1967 War, an act of pusillanimity that, arguably, made that war inevitable).
The notion that the Israelis, knowing their history, would willingly entrust their fate to the UN - or that they owe the UN for their existence - lacks reality.
It was the 60s. Exodus was on the big screen, its theme was all over the radio, Milk and Honey was on Broadway and my mom’s tape deck. It was cool to be Jewish, and I was sad I was only a quarter. Idealism regarding Israel was palpable on the left.
I never said I was deep, just susceptible to the weltanschauung when I was young. :o
Oh, and no probs. I don’t mind being corrected, even roughly. It helps me grow as a human.
(looking at the above line) Okay, maybe I’m not the centrist I think I am, and am actually a 60s liberal. shrug John Mace is still to the right of center. 
Yes and that comes down to one word “oil”.
What’s that got to do with this discussion?
Because the Jews invented oil? Or was that Al Gore? I’m all discombobulated since I saw a guy in a real Members Only jacket yesterday. It’s like I’m unstuck from time.
Er… you never questioned the idea of her being sympathetic to Jews and I never said you did.
What you did was argue that she couldn’t be sympathetic to the Arabs because, to your mind, she was a Jew.
Er…in response to the mention of the influence of Arabists at the State Department you snidely proclaimed
You later indicated that you specifically mentioned Albright and Kissinger because being Jews(in your mind) they were proof that Arabists weren’t a strong presence in the State Department.
Are you going to seriously try and pretend you didn’t specifically bring them up because you thought they were both Jewish? That you hadn’t specifically googled “Jewish Secretary of State” or words to that affect?
This is demonstrably false. You most certainly did not take back your statement “on the same day” and it certainly wasn’t "within a few posts of making the original statement. You claimed for weeks after this that Albright was a Jew and keep insisting she was even after it was pointed out her parents had converted to Christianity before she was born and she was raised a Christian.
Finally after over a month and multiple posts on multiple threads making idiotic claims about Madeline Albright where you kept insisting she should be considered a Jew “because she was Jewish by birth” even if she was raised a Christian, had always considered herself Christian and never even learned till decades later that her parents had come from Jewish families, decided to concede you might have been wrong and tried to blame this on misreading a part of her own wikipedia biography and hoped nobody noticed that the passage you quoted noted that she wasn’t Jewish.
Either way, you freely admitted that made really dramatic assumptions about the political opinions of Madeline Albright and Henry Kissinger based on the fact you thought they were both Jews.
Yes, to anyone who can read English that appears to be their renouncing any claims to the territory. They seem to have thought so as well since they rewrote their national Covenant a few years later, deleted this article and tried to pretend Stalin-like that it had never existed.
No, that’s not what I said and I don’t see how any reasonable person would think that.
They certainly seem to be claiming that the land belongs to the Kingdom of Jordan.
Obviously since then they’ve changed their minds.
That Jews had a hard argument to make against powers that needed the Arab oil. They were inclined to not support Jewish presence, and to cave in to terrorist acts on the other side to keep things “cool”
Did you really not know what I meant or are you being intentionally obtuse? Because its making you look really petty.
I’ll ask again, where do I say (as you claim) that Madeleine Albright cannot be sympathetic to Arabs.
Cite? We can argue about how long it took me to recant four years ago if its a pivotal part of your argument but you’ll have to provide a cite of shut up.
No offense but is English your first language?
Because it does not necessarily mean what you think it means.
Then what the fuck is the point of your bringing it up? If they are not conceding it to Israel then all else is moot. If you agree that they cannot and do not pretend to concede land on behalf of all Palestinians everywhere then once again, all else is moot.
No, it’s not clear what you were referring to and many of your comments have been rather irrational and you’ve quite often denied saying what you said.
As a result, I respond to what you actually say.
This is about the fifth or sixth time you’ve asked me this.
The answer, for about the fifth or sixth time, yes, it is my first language.
Now, I’ll take you at your word and assume such a question is not meant as an insult so is there a particular reason you’ve repeatedly asked me the same question despite my repeatedly answering it?
Had you forgotten?
Were you attempting to upset me?
Is there a particular condition that causes you to do this.
Yes, made it clear that in your opinion Madeline Albright couldn’t be sympathetic to Arabs because she was(to your mind) a Jew.
Are you denying you ever held such views or made such statements?
Yes, for over a month and over the course of multiple threads and multiple posts you insisted that Madeline Albright was a Jew, were very insistent about this and claimed she couldn’t be sympathetic to the Arabs due to this.
Are you accusing me of lying?
Are you denying you never made this claim?
Also, since you’ve decided to continue this argument, why did it take you more than a month to admit that Albright wasn’t really Jewish?
Was there a particular reason it was important for you that she be a Jew?
Is this a serious question?
You’re asking why is it relevant if the PLO renounced any claim to sovereignty over the West Bank of the Jordan River?
This nearly caused me to piss myself with laughter. You’re aware what would happen to anyone on the West Bank who insisted in belonged to Jordan no to the PA aren’t you?
I’m not sure what you’re asking me, could you rephrase?
Thanks.
When you started this sentence, I thought you were going to say it was your 5th or 6th language. I don’t recall you ever answering the question but you may have.
Its not intended as an insult but based on how you misread what I write, or where you fail to correct fairly obvious typos or lay particularly heavy emphasis on the fact that I capitalized one word or failed to capitalize another word led me to believe that there was some sort of communication problem. So now i know that a failure to communicate is not due differing cultural cues its… something else.
Yes, I am denying it. So please correct me and provide a cite where I say Madeleine Albright CANNOT be sympathetic to Arabs because she is a Jew. Because I can cite to several posts where I state that some Israeli Jews are in fact sympathetic to Arabs (Palestinians in particular). At this point it just seems like you are jsut trying to labnel me as an anti-semite.
OK, so cite to these multiple threads and show me where i say that jews cannot be sympathetic to Arabs?
Yes I am saying I did not say that Jews CANNOT be sympathetic to arabs.
Now, are you accusing me of lying?
Its possible I misremember, after all you are bringing up something from 4 years ago so just provide a cite and refresh my memory.
Can you provide a cite? I mean for fucks sake, it was 4 years ago. how the fuck can you remember all this and not be able to provide a cite?
YES!!! How is it relevant in determining property rights? That is what we were discussing right? Property rights, correct?
You’re asking why is it relevant if the PLO renounced any claim to sovereignty over the West Bank of the Jordan River?
In the context of the discussion we were having, how does that matter?
We were talking about property rights and compensation to be determined by some impartial third party, you proposed the UN, I said fine. Then you started to bring up this tangential shit about what the PLO said about their claim of sovereignty some decades ago.
In the context of property rights, how does that matter unless the PLO was abandoning all claims to property on behalf of Palestinians everywhere?