Same here, tbh. It’s just that “lesbian Xena fan” is practically it’s own stereotype, so it’s (minorly) surprisingly when someone familiar with geek culture isn’t aware of it. Probably, it’s just a bigger deal in the circles I travel in.
Whoa. What did I miss?
He allegedly cheated on his wife. He was allegedly a jerk as a director to several people who worked with him.
Where is that worth of prison?
I’m in the Whedon is kind of an ass camp, but that doesn’t mean that he’s a fake feminist. I’d assume that if David Boreanaz showed up after break looking like Fat Thor, Whedon would also go off on him. In the moment he yelled at her (Carpenter), he probably felt his whole plan for that season unravelling. Should he have been an asshole, no. Would I be an asshole in that same seat, maybe. I hope not, but I can’t know.
Umm, no that entire set to slam down some “Joss can’t ever be allowed alone with her again” rules. comes from just her. Joss is known to be rather tough as a director. We dont know if this was sexual or he just yelled at her in a really mean way. Maybe he made her cry with his criticisms of her acting. Not nice, but hardly a crime.
Fair, I’m a weird geek. D&D from the start, Tolkien & Fantasy of course, old school Sci-Fi and original Star Trek. But not a comic book reader, not a Star Wars fan.
I think, (think) Xena & Herc probably were bigger with comic book fans. And in the end they were smallish shows audience-wise. Buffy, Firefly and Angel come up all the time here on the Dope. I’ve never noticed Xena come up before. I think Buffy, Tolkien & Pratchett are load bearing for the Straight Dope membership. Ahead of Trek & Star Wars and just a little behind nitpicking. 
Correction: Probably a lot behind nitpicking. 
Given that two of the three are holy to me for various reasons, I would agree.
I’m kinda wondering how Whedon’s “crimes” stack up against fellow “Great” directors who were also assholes. Alfred Hitchcock for example.
It’s definitely been a cultural norm, that visionary artists get to be shitheads to people in their lives. But that cultural norm is changing: we seem less willing now to give you a shithead pass if you’re creating good art. Whedon may not be worse than Hitchcock was, but he’s alive and currently working, so he’s the one at the heart of the conversation.
These are missing the point. Just because Whedon might not be “as bad as Hitchcock” doesn’t mean he should be immune from criticism, and it definitely doesn’t mean he should be allowed to continue in this behavior while supervising people. Warner Bros. was finally pushed to fire him. It shouldn’t take a Twitter campaign by an actor with something of a platform to make that happen. Abusive directors should be disciplined and removed from their positions if intervention doesn’t cure the problem.
This, of course, is not just an issue in show business. It should be the norm in any business.
Exactly.
…exactly.
Hollywood has been shit to women, black people and people of colour since the beginning. Things are still bad industry wide. The statistics say it all.
This hasn’t been updated in a few years, but the “Shit people say to women directors and other women in film” website shows just a fraction of the stuff women in the industry have to deal with. Whedon might not be as bad as Hitchcock, and he might be worse than plenty in Hollywood, but the film industry is pretty damn toxic.
Xena may have shown more skin, but Buffy wasn’t exactly a slouch in that department.
https://dvdbash.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/buffy-sarah-michelle-gellar-dvdbash163.jpg?w=848
I’m (still) a fan of much of Whedon’s work. I’m not recommending we overlook his misdeeds. So far, all of his objectionable behavior appears to be verbal; Hitchcock and Weinstein could not make that claim. (Some unnamed Buffy-era crew workers were mentioned in a recent blurb about Whedon’s toxic environment, and they claimed the “No more Joss and Michelle T. alone in a room together” rule came from a verbal barrage; this does not contradict Michelle Trachtenberg’s statemets to date, even though the dramatically implied it might have been a lot worse.)
Words from a powerful director to a powerless subordinate pack a lot of punch, and maybe there should be consequences. I haven’t heard anything concrete enough about him to say he should be run out of the industry, though. The sad fact is, every movie or TV show you’ve ever enjoyed came out of a toxic workplace environment and, in context, Whedon is probably no worse than average.
Change starts someplace. If it starts with Whedon, then so be it.
It’s notable that there has been no visible attempt yet on his part to make any admission, apology, or amends. I’m not going to stop liking Buffy or Firefly, but I’m also happy to have him barred from any supervisory position in the meantime.
Please, don’t perpetuate the myth that abusive behavior must be tolerated in order for us to have things we like.
How am I "missing the point? I never said Joss shouldn’t be criticized, I said there is nothing there which even suggest prison time for him. Anger management classes, maybe some other therapy, but hard time in the grey bar hotel?
…this isn’t objectively true. Not every movie or TV show is toxic to the degree of the stories we have heard from the Buffy cast or Ray Fisher. And the existence of other toxic workplaces doesn’t mean we can just ignore the toxic workplaces we find out about.
In context Whedon is certainly worse than average. He made life on set for several people so bad that his behavior is still having repercussions decades later. That shouldn’t be forgiven so easily. And its disingenuous to compare his behavior to the likes of Weinstein. The only reason to invoke his name in this thread is if you wanted to minimize what happened. Its would be hard to find anybody in the world, let alone in Hollywood, who came close to to doing what Weinstein did. If Weinstein is the benchmark then nobody hits the benchmark.
As to “should we drive Whedon out of the industry?”
Well that’s the wrong question. Its a privilege to work in Hollywood. There are thousands of people all around the world that have the talent to produce at Whedon’s level. Just look at Wandavision. The showrunner is Jac Schaeffer: just a handful of credits under her belt, wrote/directed and produced one low budget movie, co-screen writer on three other movies before knocking it out of the park with Marvel’s debut series. How many more Jac Schaeffer’s are there out there? And why not give them an opportunity instead of the guy who is a toxic asshole who hasn’t come up with an original idea in years?
The industry doesn’t need Whedon any more. He’s done.
Yes, indeed…
David Lynch stacks up like a mad cunt of stacking decency, he even did good trans stuff on primetime TV USA before it was conceiveed what a great dyde
The industry doesn’t need Whedon any more. He’s done.
When you write and direct the first movie to gross a billion dollars, the people who decide whether or not to hire you again might not see being mean to Ray Fisher and Charisma Carpenter as a complete deal breaker. And as a toxic asshole, he’s a piker next to, say, Victor Fleming or Stanley Kubrick (If they aren’t the benchmark for successful directors, who is?). I don’t think Joss Whedon is quite finished in Hollywood yet. I’m glad his undeserved reputation as a sharing, nurturing, feminist male is finished, though.
…nah, I’m cool. He was the first to break a billion. But it would have broken a billion regardless of who directed it. And he was also responsible for the box office bomb Justice League. I’m calling it as I see it. He’s done.
And we can see what you are doing here. He did more than “be mean.” Cyborg’s role in Justice League was practically reduced to a cameo. Carpenter lost a well paying job and her career never really recovered. This isn’t about “just being mean.” Why are you continually playing down what Whedon did? In the age of #metoo that doesn’t work any more.
Just keep shifting those goalposts. I wasn’t talking about the benchmark for successful directors (because Weinstein is not a successful director.) We are talking about the benchmark for toxic assholes.
Why should he get work?
There are plenty of directors, showrunners, producers, writers out there that don’t have a reputation for running a toxic set that bring more to the table than Whedon does. We know he was running a toxic set as recently as Justice League. These aren’t all historical allegations.
Hollywood has a huge diversity problem. There is absolutely no reason to give Whedon more work. There is so much untapped talent out there. There isn’t any reason to give Whedon work any more. His Wonder Woman script was openly mocked. He went “back to the well” with the Nevers, a show about “a gang of Victorian women who find themselves with unusual abilities” because he’s locked into his wheelhouse. And he had to leave that for the sake of the production because he probably knew what was coming.
He doesn’t deserve your defense. The man is a toxic asshole. He did more than “be mean.” He destroyed careers.