“Destroyed careers?” Charisma Carpenter’s has steady work since Angel - IMDB shows her with at least one named character role every year since she got fired. And while I’m sure it sucks for Ray Fisher that his part got reduced, that’s not abuse. I’ve seen Justice League, and the answer to its problems wasn’t “more Ray Fisher.” He gave a largely lifeless performance in a movie that was already overstuffed with characters. Sometimes cutting a character is the best thing you can do for a movie. That doesn’t excuse abusive behavior on set, of course, but unless there’s claims that he tried to blackball either of these actors, he didn’t destroy anyone’s career.
But it would have broken a billion regardless of who directed it. And he was also responsible for the box office bomb Justice League. I’m calling it as I see it. He’s done.
Why are The Avengers more inherently marketable than Justice League? With the latter, Whedon was locked into a train wreck already in progress, but without that baggage, both should be comparably appealing to moviegoers.
It isn’t “moving the goalposts” to suggest that Whedon is no more (or less) egregious in his behavior than most other directors at his level. Film directors tend to be awful people. I’d like to see more of a context here.
#metoo? To my knowledge, nobody so far has accused Whedon of sexual assault, the common thread of #metoo, so dragging that into the discussion is premature.
The man is a toxic asshole. He did more than “be mean.” He destroyed careers.
He fired some people. That doesn’t destroy careers. I’ve read the same news releases you have, and have yet to see one that says he smeared any of them with the label of “difficult.”
Whedon didn’t write nor direct Titanic.
[Moderating]
While I get that the word “cunt” has a different meaning in Australia than in the US, you know by now that this is a primarily American message board, and that language should be used accordingly. Further, even the Australian usage of the word doesn’t seem to make any sense here. It looks like you’re just shoehorning the word in because you know it will be offensive. Coupled with your other posts in this thread, this looks a heck of a lot like trolling.
This is a Warning, and a suspension while we discuss what further action will be taken.
…I didn’t say he destroyed Carpenter’s or Fisher’s career. (although the way Hamada and co have sided with Whedon is a story that hasn’t fully played out yet.)
But toxic assholes in the workplace like Wheldon always have a trail of victims we never hear about. We’ve heard the stories of how he treated some women in the writers room. We know the churn rate of women out of the industry. We are probably never going to hear their stories. For every story we hear there are probably ten that we don’t.
The Avengers was the endgame of (what is now called) phase 1 of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It had four years of build up and anticipation bringing together heroes from different movies for the first time in a big team up. Justice League tried to do the same thing but they didn’t put in the work. Audiences were invested in the MCU. They didn’t care about the DC film universe. Avengers was always going to knock it out of the park. Justice League was always going to struggle. And Whedon didn’t help.
Whedon actually had a substantial amount of creative control on Justice League and could have made a better film if he were able to. This interview with Zack Snyder is illuminating.
I’m not a fan of Snyder. I’ve never liked his movies, I don’t like most of his fandom, I probably won’t see Snyder’s cut. But I’m really glad he got to finish his film. Because lets be clear about what happened behind the scenes. Whedon was bought onto the movie by his mates and was rewriting and directing scenes without as much as a “by your leave” to the official director of the film. Of course he didn’t have to be polite about it. That isn’t how Hollywood works. But toxic assholes gotta be toxic assholes and this was just Whedon being Whedon.
Snyder estimates Whedon reshot and rewrote three quarters of the film. The trainwreck that ended up onscreen is both a product of the dysfunctional DC production process and Joss Whedon himself.
You first compared Whedon to Weinstein. It was a shift in goalposts to then compare him to “directors at his level.” But for starters Whedon isn’t a director at the level of Victor Fleming or Stanley Kubrick. The only thing in common is the title director. He isn’t even in the same ballpark as Kubrick. Whedon directed two Avengers movies and Justice League, a version of a Shakespeare play that was literally filmed in his house starring many of his friends, and a lot of TV shows. Whedon is no Kubrick. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
And Whedon isn’t really known just for his directing. He is a writer, producer and showrunner.
So there’s your context here. Film directors shouldn’t be awful people. We should be actively working to make sure awful people don’t hold positions of power where they can be awful to other people. Lets not give awful people a pass just because other awful people exist.
Me too has never just been about sexual assault. Carpenter even cites “Time’s Up” as one of the reasons she came forward.
This is #metoo . It isn’t premature to bring it into the discussion. The discussion is already there.
I’ve already addressed this. He did more than fire people. And labeling people “difficult” isn’t the only way someone can impact someone else’s career.
There are more than one way to destroy a career. Miller said she has had “steady work” since leaving Angel. Imagine what could have happened if she didn’t have these memories “weighing down her soul.” The psychological impact of bullies for some never goes away. I talked about that earlier in the thread. This stuff is damaging in ways many of us can’t imagine.
Probably the same thing? The odds of her getting a second starring role in an ongoing series are super slim - most actors don’t even get one shot at something like that, let alone multiple. She was almost certainly not going to make the jump to movies.
…or maybe she could have moved into directing, or writing, or another creative discipline. Look at how many actors now that have directed episodes of their show. This isn’t just about acting. This isn’t just about one thing. Toxic people like Whedon know all the right buttons to push. Carpenter has told us how Wldeon’s abuse has stayed with her for more than half of her life. That matters here.
This shouldn’t have to be my battle to fight Dept. :
Wait. Geller drew a hard line in the sand re: toplessness or showing too much skin. She’s actually pretty famous in her circles for it and there are many articles about it. This is just one:
< end of hijack >
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As for what happened between Whedon & Trachtenberg, I wasn’t in the room so I’ll never know.
…I mean, what an asshole.
Scrolling down a couple of posts below your blog cite brings us to a long informative post about Whedon.
Someone can be both a sharing, nurturing, feminist male- and a jerk asshole at times as a director when he is crossed.
It was by no means a bomb. The first boxoffice made back the production costs. However, then there are many other costs and JL didnt quite make them back. It mad eplenty of moola, just that the costs were high. And no, he isnt responsible, that was zackthemanwhohatessuperheros. Joss was called in as a saviour quite late in production.
[quote=“Banquet_Bear, post:247, topic:932735”]
“The Me Too (or #MeToo) movement, with variations of related local or international names, is a social movement against sexual abuse and sexual harassment where people publicize allegations of sex crimes.”…This is #metoo . It isn’t premature to bring it into the discussion. The discussion is already there.[/quote]
No one is seriously accusing Joss of sexual abuse or sexual harassment or sex crimes. They are accusing him of being a equal opportunity asshole and jerk at times. If you are a jerk to male stars AND female stars, that is not what #MeToo is about. Weinstein is what #MeToo is about. SEXUAL harassment, not harrassment.
…it was a bomb. If you just managed to claw back your production costs on a $300 million dollar movie and your marketing costs on the worldwide box office then you’ve made a bomb.
I’ve already cited a lot of what happened behind the scenes. Snyder thinks that Whedon rewrote and reshot about three quarters of the film that ended up onscreen. The theatrical release was Whedon’s film.
I don’t think you get to redefine what is and isn’t #metoo here. Being an equal opportunity bully to both men and women doesn’t mean squat here unless you think that men cannot be part of me too as well.
Weinstein was the catalyst for the resurgence of #metoo. But centering it on him takes away agency from the black woman who coined the term over a decade before Weinstein’s crimes were taken seriously. Tarana Burke. Me too really isn’t about the perpetrators. Its about solidarity. Its about opening up space for people to be able to come forward to openly talk about their harassers. That’s what happened here. Fisher coming forward opened up space for Carpenter to come forward and for others to come forward as well. That’s what the movement is all about: not some rigid interpretation of what is and isn’t sexual harassment.
Throwing the blame on Whedon, as indeed the film didn’t do well. You are taking Zacks word for this. If the film had done well, Zack the big liar would claim it was most all his, Joss didnt do much.
I didnt "redefine’ anything, In fact i exactly quoted your very own cite that defined it.
Men can indeed be part of #MeToo, certain,y. But per your own definition #MeToo “The Me Too (or #MeToo) movement, …s a social movement against sexual abuse and sexual harassment where people publicize allegations of sex crimes.”
Sex crimes, sexual abuse ,sexual harassment. Not simply harassment. YOUR definition, not mine.
Never mind.
…I’m not just taking Zack’s word for this. This has been common knowledge for quite a while. Zack doesn’t have a reputation for “being a big liar.” By all accounts he seems to be a relatively humble decent person who also happens make movies that I personally hate.
I think pregnancy harassment is about a clear example of workplace sexual harassment that you can get. But as I said: this isn’t about some rigid interpretation of what is and isn’t sexual harassment.
Yeah, when we’re talking about sexual harassment vs sex - based harassment we’re really splitting hairs.
Why not? If you just look at the Buffy cast, Gellar had a successful movie career as a lead actress, Boreanaz and Hannigan went on to headline wildly successful series of their own, Seth Green has had a successful VO career and developed Robot Chicken.
I’m not saying that she was destined for any of this without Whedon’s abuse, but people talk in the entertainment industry. And if the word’s on the street that you’re in the doghouse with a popular and successful creator like Whedon that can’t help but be a drag on your career.
…you’ve put this much better than me. 
Indeed.