Goodness, inconsistent stories from Tolkien? Inconceivable!
mg,
Since every word of Tolkien is inspired, it’s obviously our corrupt natures and limited understanding that prevent us from fully understanding the texts. The seeming contradictions test our wisdom and faith and encourage us to grow stronger in heart and mind.
Well, the Numenoreans diminished significantly, the Orcs were corrupted from Elves, and Saruman seemed to be engaged in an explicit program of genetic modification (i.e., breeding Orcs and Men).
I’ll agree Tolkien was an inspired writer. As a matter of fact it was often said that no one could edit his work, as it would be considered rude. Let us not forget Tolkien was a mathmatical writer, he studied lingustics and was the Rawlingson Professor of Anglo-Saxon. So yes he knew his writing. I dare to venture this is not a lone inconsistancy, but clearly it is inconsistant. Gollum may not have been a Took or a Baggins as it were. But he certainly could have been akin to say an Englishmans Norse cousin.
One thing that I noticed is that in the beginning of the movie when Smeagal is shown finding the ring, you can just see a hand reaching into the water, and it looks distinctly Gollum-like, not hobbit-like.
Heh.
No it’s not. The next frame shows a healthy pink hand holding ita and purring. smeagol, as a hobbit, before being warped by centuries with the ring alone in the dark.
Am I the only one who feels very very sorry for the men who had to be cross-bred to create the Uruk-Hai?
That’s not Smeagol’s hand picking the ring out of the sand.
It’s soon-to-be-offed Deagol’s. But the next hand shown holding the Ring must surely be Smeagol’s, as we can hear him purring over it.
I thought they had changed that in the film to crossbreeding “orcs” with “goblins”.
Speaker for the Dead asked:
I wonder if they used human men X women orcs or human women X male orcs?
Ewww either way.
The “Tale of Years” in the Appendix has two flaws. One, it is not comprehensive, because it is a condensation of information. Thus, the phrase “Déagol the Stoor” is not incompatible with the more complete (or would Tolkein say compleat?) explanation from Gandalf that Déagol was “akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors.” It isn’t quite fully explained whether the people of which Déagol and Sméagol are members are those left behind when the Stoors migrated, or whether they are Stoors who fled the Angle and returned to the Wilderland (cf. the entry for 1356 in the Third Age in the Tale of Years). Either way, they are halflings; whether they are “hobbits” depends on whether Hobbits use that word to include all halflings, or only those who migrated to Eriador early in the Third Age.
Further information is found in Appendix F; in a footnote regarding Hobbit speech Tolkein notes that, while Stoors in the Angle had adopted the “Common Speech”, the names Sméagol and Déagol appear to have been related to mannish speech used near the Gladden fields. One can infer from this that Sméagol and Déagol are related to halflings who remained behind when the migration of “hobbits” over the mountains to Eriador occurred.
Thus, Gandalf is no doubt talking to Frodo from Frodo’s perspective as a “hobbit” living in the Shire, who thinks of the Stoors not as a breed of halfling living near water, but as a people who lived in the Shire different from Fallohides and Naugahydes (oops, sorry for the obligatory BotR reference), that is, Harfoots in the same way Celts and Slavs are different.
Since the word “hobbit” (correctly kuduk) is a word made by hobbits, and apparently corrupted from holbytla (correctly kûd-dûkan), a word found in the speech of the Rohirrim, the correct answer to the OP would appear to be:
Trahald and Nahald (Sméagol and Déagol untranslated) were possibly kûd-dûkan (holbytla), but not necessarily kuduk (hobbits). They were definitely banakil (halflings).
Actually, I prefer to think that Saruman was engaged in genetic engineering, and didn’t need actual breeding programs to modify the genetic traits of the orcs…
They said “goblin-men,” which could mean male goblins (which would of course be orcs) or it could mean half-orcs. The breeding of orcs and humans was definitely one of the darkest things in the book and a strong indication of just how far Saruman had fallen. Maybe it was just too icky for a movie that has to appeal to preteens and their parents.
Although people complained about the birth of the urak-hai in the movies, imagine how disturbing it would have been to see one be delivered by a female orc or, even worse, a human woman.
Unless he had Viagra or a damn good fluffer I bet it was the second choice.
http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/source/Ringer_Spy_Kristoffer
they look hobbitish, a bit bigger perhaps.
then… things take a nasty turn…
Why the F*** does PJ think hobbits have pointy ears!!!
To be fair he’s given everyone but humans and dwarves pointy ears…
What do I win?
Have you noticed that we never see any female orcs? Not one. I’m inclined to think that they’re all kept locked away in Isengard and Barad-Dur, to be used for breeding more orcs.
This could could explain why there are so many orcs.