So what the hell happened at Waco, anyway?

[astorian]

This is one case in which, to use a cliche, the truth really does lie somewhere in the middle.

When the federal government gets word that there’s an apocalyptic cult that might be stockpiling weapons, that is definitely valid reason for concern. The feds HAD to investigate and take some kind of action.

Unfortunately, they went in with guns blazing, as if they were dying to put action footage on “Cops” or “Rescue 911.” They were ham-fisted, clumsy and stupid, and started a shooting war where it MAY not have been necessary.

Were the Davidians weird? Definitely. Potentially dangerous? Yes. MIGHT they eventually have had to be dealt with by force? Yes. But the feds handled the entire thing as foolishly as possible. The massacre that followed was THEIR fault, not the fault of the religious weirdoes.

[appleciders]

And upon doing some research…

The main reason the ATF didn’t arrest Koresh when he was in town is that they didn’t have an arrest warrant. What they had was a search warrant, which they tried to serve in a rather dramatic fashion on February 28.

[muldoonthief]

Both the frontline cite above and the Wikipedia article state that the ATF had both arrest and search warrants when they raided the compound.

Here’s a Justice department cite as well.

[appleciders]

Hmm. Should check myself…

[asian_riff]

@muldoonthief

You wouldn’t have to tell them you’ve already arrested Koresh. He routinely left the compound - you just show up with warrants in hand while he isn’t there. They wouldn’t know he’s already in custody.

Hindsight’s 20/20 and all, but it isn’t unreasonable that without their charismatic leader to tell them to resist, they would have just said “Ok”, opened the door, and let the ATF in. That scenario is pretty much impossible if Koresh is present.

If you say so. If I were in charge, I can’t say I would ascribe any more likelihood to them laying down their weapons with or without Koresh there. I would imagine he would have already given them standing instructions to offer resistance to authorities, and wouldn’t have waited until they were actually knocking on the door to decide to resist. Just seems like a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking to me.

[blindboyard]

They weren’t stockpiling weapons. They traded weapons at gun shows for cash profits.

On July 30, 1992, ATF agents David Aguilera and Skinner visited the Davidian’s gun dealer Henry McMahon, who tried to get them to talk with Koresh on the phone. Koresh offered to let ATF inspect the Davidians’ weapons and paperwork and asked to speak with Aguilera, but Aguilera declined.[16][17] Sheriff Harwell told reporters regarding law enforcement talking with Koresh, “Just go out and talk to them, what’s wrong with notifying them?”

From the wiki article. Obviously there was no chance of catching them by surprise when they were constantly awaiting a raid, so why did they try?

[msmith537]

@gonzomax

If an undercover agent asked Koresh to make an illegal weapon for him. would that change anything to you? Koresh claimed he was being set up. I don’t know the truth. The senate hearing were not very satisfying. The cops and agents would have no trouble covering their tracks.

Was Koresh a gunsmith or something? How would he make illegal weapons?

[Johnny_L.A]

@msmith537

Was Koresh a gunsmith or something? How would he make illegal weapons?

It’s easy to make an AR-15, which is semi-automatic, automatic. You need to buy an M-16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, selector, and disconnector. Then you need to fabricate an automatic sear. There are books with plans to make them. It used to be that you could just buy auto-sears, but they were banned a couple of decades ago. It’s also illegal to make them. All you have to do is replace the listed parts, and then drop in the auto sear. Or, mill out the inside of an AR-15 so that a military sear will fit (AR-15s were designed not to allow military sears to fit) and replace the other parts.

[Fir_na_tine]

@astorian

The massacre that followed was THEIR fault, not the fault of the religious weirdoes.

@speak to me maddie

As a tank poked holes in the compound walls to insert tear gas, some cult members set the compound on fire, shot and killed many of their own members, including children, then shot themselves.

You might want to rethink that astorian, there was no massacre.

[Civil_Guy]

Most of what I know about the subject is similar to what I’ve read here; I"m here to learn more myself.

From the sound of it, the upcoming raid was not much of a secret. So I’m having some trouble believing that arresting Koresh while he was in town would have turned out to be as simple as all that. My guess - that’s all it can be - is that Koresh would have been a no-show, would have found some way to escape, or might have become a warrior/martyr.

My guess is that the sect might have been weakened some without his on-site support and guidance, but if he didn’t show up quickly, the group inside would have figured the worst, and would have started Operation Mass Martyrdom that much more quickly.

Further comments?

[astorian]

@Fir_na_tine

You might want to rethink that astorian, there was no massacre.

You want me to call it a disaster or a bloodbath, rather than a massacre? Fine, if that makes you happy.

But I’m not rethinking anything. The feds handled their raid as stupidly and ineptly as possible. The Davidians were not innocent martyrs, certainly- they were potentially dangerous nuts. I don’t blame the feds for taking action. I blame them for taking action in a way that was almost sure to end in disaster.

I needn’t like the Davidians to condemn the government’s disastrous ineptitude any more than I have to like MOVE to see that Wilson Goode handled those jerks in the worst possible manner.