Why do people blame Janet Reno for Waco? I think the ATF does hold some responsibility for the tragedy, but they are under the Treasury Department. Maybe the FBI negotiators could have done a better job, but it sure looks like the Davidians wanted the outcome they got. So why do people blame Reno?
I come to praise Reno, not to blame her.
Really, she took an action that was necessary. The only question I might ask her is why she waited over 50 days to give the order. Other than that, You GO Girl!
The vast majority of the people in Waco (including myself who lived in Waco for 23 years) blame that son-of-a-bitch child rapist David Koresh. The only thing Reno did wrong was not ordering the strike earlier.
By the way, just for the record, it didn’t happen in Waco; it happened outside of Elk, Texas which is about a thirty minute drive from Waco. The Branch Davidian compound wasn’t even in the same county as Waco and most Wacoans had never heard of them until the week of the raid when the local paper grabbed a scoop and ran a special on them in anticipation of the raid.
Yes I understand that Waco is the closest big city but Wacoans hate that they get tagged with that freak squad out there in the boonies.
Since Koresh was the criminal suspect, why didn’t the FBI grab him while he was away from the compound? Why put a siege on a heavily fortified compound loaded with children?
I think you mean the ATF.
I don’t blame Reno for either Waco or the Elian fiasco. I think she did the right thing in both situations. Even if Waco had not happened, Reno wouldn’t be loved by the militia right.
For several reasons. First of all they would have still had to siege the heavily fortified compound to seize the illegal weapons and serve the search warrants. Secondly, Koresh wasn’t the only criminal suspect in the focus of the raid. If they could have nabbed Koresh away from the compound – what then? Wait around for several weeks to see if the other heavily armed and dangerous men in the compound would be stupid enough to take a walk down to the piggly wiggly even though they know that the ATF is waiting around to grab them?
If Koresh had been arrested away from the compound he would have called his second in command (Schneider) and given him orders to start the assualt on the city of Waco that they had been planning. This wasn’t a case of a single criminal mind who could have been taken in and then all would be well. The Branch Davidians were a large group of very violent and hateful people with an apocalyptic world-view. They were planning, among other things, to blow up the Waco dam, to blow up government buildings in Waco, and to begin a wave of terror that would “make the L.A. riots look like a picnic”. They had the means and the will to do these things.
They were planning to go out in a blaze of murder and suicide long before the ATF ever showed up to serve warrants. As a Wacoan (at the time) I am glad that it took place on their turf rather than at my child’s school.
I’ve never understood this either. I’ve always thought that Reno’s biggest failing was that she left the kid gloves on too long in all of the high-profile cases we’ve seen.
Re: Waco, specifically, I have never understood what the beef is with her actions. The criticisms have almost universally come from the Right, and that mystifies me, as they usually want to beat me over the head with how we need to be tougher on crime.
Let’s look over the Waco group:
- apocalyptic cult: check
- child abusers/ rapists: check
- access to heavy weapons: check
- plans to go out in a blaze of glory, killing themselves and as many supporters of ‘Babylon’ as possible: check
Okay…what was the problem again? If this compound had been a crack house, with all of the same traits, would anyone be complaining at all?
It is just an excuse for conservatives and Republicans to blame the Clinton administration for something tragic.
BTW I am a staunch conservative and my only criticism of Reno in Waco is that the raid didn’t happen soon enough and didn’t involve more manpower and more heavy-handed tactics (then the stand-off could have been avoided). I am embarassed by other conservatives who criticize her actions in Waco. They either don’t know what really happened in Waco, they willfully ignore the facts in order to get a punch in at Clinton, or they contradict their own views in order to slam Clinton. In any case it is a dishonest road to take.
Also I would say that the loudest criticism of Reno in Waco comes from the nutcase militia culture which is not representative of most conservatives in America. All the more reason to leave it alone, as tempting as it may be to get one down on Clinton.
I’m not siding in one way or the other on this so this request isn’t a confrontational one: Cite?
I knew they were a bit looney, and the whole Christ complex and child abuse thing was just sick but I never heard of any pre-ATF raid info that they planned suicidal terrorist activities.
Mmm… I don’t think the entire thing was well handled. The ATF guys had quite a few opportunities to do things differently before things blew up in their faces, and instead, they chose to go in there, swingin’ their big, um, guns, and surprise: religious maniacs with assault weapons WILL fight back, nastily and efficiently!
Not sure how this is Reno’s or Clinton’s fault, though. Wouldn’t be the first time government agents have allowed their sense of invulnerability to trip them up. Or the last.
Attacking the compound with tanks was not a good idea, either. Unfortunately, by that time, there were few good alternatives left. The siege was a media circus, and had been allowed to go on much too long, and the media simply weren’t going to let it alone. It was a no-win situation, as far as the Clinton administration was concerned. The only other thing they could have done would be to starve 'em out, and who knows what they might have decided to pull while waiting for that to happen…
Sure. Althogh it is difficult to find any good information on the net. The net attracts all manner of nutjobs and conspircacy theoriests, especially in relation to this issue. Here is a link to various reprints of news articles concerning the issue:
Davidian Links
It also contains links to groups with interest on both sides of the issues. In my above quote the facts I referred to were from memory of news while living in Waco at the time. There is far too much info for me to dig through at the link above but a quick scan shows some agreement with me:
(all in summary):
From Washington Post 7-2-1995:
From Newsweek 3-15-1993:
That’s just a couple of many cites you can find linked from the above site that discuss Koresh’s dangerousness. By the time the seige ended the exploits of Koresh and the Davidians were well known and not many people can seriously believe that he and his followers were not a direct threat to the local community.
A list of the weapons found in the compound that werent destroyed in the blaze:
200+ separate weapons including:
2 Barrett 50-caliber sniper rifles.
19 SGW CAR-AR assault submachine guns, including three fitted with silencers.
Eight hand grenades and at least 31 other grenade parts and fragments.
More than 20 pieces and fragments of rockets, apparently used to make rocket-propelled grenades.
Three Israeli-made IMI Galil assault rifles.
Ten Ruger Mini-14 assault rifles-including one with a mounted scope.
An M60 machine gun.
A 30 mm rocket shell.
Nine FAL assault rifles, including three mounted on bipods.
At least 54 AK-47 or AKS assault rifles, including some converted to fully automatic submachine guns.
11 .12-gauge shotguns, including one with a sawed-off barrel.
And here at the Waco-Tribune Herald’s award winning expose (a week before the raid) of the Davidians, although it mostly focuses on Koresh’s sickining child rape and abuse: The Sinful Messiah
Boy it’s been a looong time since I heard this debate.
And it was not worth debating then. It’s like that guy who just shot all his children/incestuous grandchildren. Blaming the cops for trying to save somebody and failing to save them all is a disservice to them.
I watched the whole thing live on TV. It always amazes me how everything gets so distorted with the passage of time. Nothing you list has been proven.
I don’t want to bring this up again and again to argue with those who weren’t there, and haven’t read anything but the propaganda.
Janet Reno did not perform well under fire. She made a lot of mistakes, and the house of the “Davidians” could have been served any time by one or two people. The whole thing resulted in many deaths. Unnecessary deaths.
At the time, reporters were saying the government men shot first and hit David. It appeared the fire started at the point a military tank pushed in the wall. It was speculated propane tanks were hit and set afire. The NRA could find no illegal guns in the ashes. It was a very sad thing, the loss of innocent children. I can’t tell you for sure what happened in every instance, there would be no way I could know, but I do know many Americans were upset at the fiasco, and blamed Reno for it. It should have never happened.
It is better not to accept anything less than the truth. Truth comes from first-hand experience, not from the media.
Love
If nothing in that list has been proven, that what would qualify as proof? If dozens of people testifying that Koresh did in fact rape and molest children doesn’t qualify as proof, then what does? If testimony by members of the cult that Koresh was planning massive terrorist attacks doesn’t count as proof, then what does? If the illegal weapons that the government found in the compound don’t count as proof, then what does? Help me out here, woud ya.
Not it does not. In the videos of the attack, it is plainly obvious that the fires break out at several points in the compound, some on the first floor and some one the second floor. How could a tank knocking over a propane can start a fire on the second floor? The only explanation for what can be seen on the videos is an organized effort by those inside the compound to start the fires.
As always in these threads, for those who want clear, factual, and unbiased accounts of what we know about the Waco standoff, I recommend Massacre at Waco, Texas by Clifford Linedecker, and Messianic Revolution by David Katz and Richard Popkin.
ITR, it’s useless. It’s lekatt, who’s proven that once he gets an absurd idea stuck in his head, it will beat itself against the walls of his cranium to its death (and have a near-death experience) before it will get out…
Lekatt -
You have no idea what you are talking about. If this exhaustive independant investigation of the events isn’t able to educate you then nothing will.
You were a branch-davidian present in the compound during the seige? If so please present us with your story.
If not then please present some shread of evidence that Stonebow’s comments were anything less than factual, because there is a mountian of evidence proving that they are, including:
*the first-hand experience of former Davidians
*first-hand experience of government agents present at the seige
*video and audio recordings from inside and outside the compund during the seige (counts as first-hand experience)
*first hand experience of local law enforcement and other locals who had contact with the group
*first-hand experience of FBI agents who infiltarted the group
*first-hand sworn testimony of former and current Davidians
*the writings of Koresh and and followers (first-hand evidence)
*first-hand experience of the hundreds of investigators who investigated the compound after the seige
If first-hand experience is truly your litmus test for truth then the evidence at hand most certainly proves you wrong.
Was the Danforth report anything like the Warren report?
Why are we hashing over the unknowable.
Yes, I saw the recent videos of the event, they were nothing like the original.
Large amounts of people who saw the incident were shocked at the senseless deaths of innocent children. Just like large amounts of people who saw the JFK shooting were stunned at the “one shooter” theory of the Warren report.
Believe what you want, you will anyway.
Before the incident the Davidians had never shot anyone, threatened anyone or harmed anyone. True they were a religious “cult” established by the Bible theories of one man. But this country has freedom of religion, or did, have it.
My main problem with self-styled critics is they don’t think anyone except themselves should be allowed to have an opinion.
Love
lekatt, would it help if we told you we saw it in a dream, or doesn’t something become a fact unless you dream it?
worships Czarcasm
Thank you. Up is down, left is right, fact is fiction, and dreams are reality in lekattLand…