I like my DM’s system best. He just says “make up some ability scores”, and if they’re too powerful, he vetoes them.
Not to bring up ARS MAGICA again, but they used what became the standard the White Wolf method of everyone has X number of…wound levels (been awhile, can’t recall the term exactly), and at level X you suffer certain penalties, at X+2 it might be more penalties, etc. Certain types of damage make it more difficult to heal that wound level (i.e. one level of bludgeon damage may be healed in a day, but one level of being hit with a sword would take a week, etc.)
I think it’s significantly more realistic but the admitted downside for a more heroic game like D&D is that a 10th level fighter would have the same hit points as a first level fighter. In this case, HP are more suited to having a Conan-style guy standing on a rock, slashing at his foes while his enemies rush him. Of course, the WW system in later games made it strangely difficult to actually injure your opponents which was frustruating at times…
Actually, one of the best game systems out there… based on OGL, a superhero game called Mutants and Masterminds, doesn’t use HP at all. You make damage saves each time you get hit. Fail one, you get a negative one to your next save. Fail by ten, you get KOed.
Mutants and Masterminds can best be described as 9/10ths the flexibility of Champions, with 1/10th the pain in the assitude. It is entirely possible to play a quick game without rules. You can find it at the local B&N or most bookstores that carry gaming books. (It’s popular enough it sold out its entire first print run… just got republished this month, should be nice and fresh in stores)
Well, multiple weapns was similar to 3.0. (we’ll draw the line at 2, because save for a very few number of races, that’s the limit. Of course, there was a way for a ranger to grow a third arm…) Basically, there were penalites like -10 and -8 (I don’t remember the exact numbers.) If they offhand weapon was smaller than the primary weapon, the penalties went down (in 3.0, they changes the wording to a light weapon, as oppossed to any weapon smaller than the primary.) I also believe that in the fighter’s handbook, there were weapon proficiencies for two-weapon fighting. Instead of learning a new weapon to fight with, you learned how to use two at once. Also, rangers could fight w/ two weapons with no penalty at all if wearing studded leather or lighter armor, if the offhand weapon was smaller, of course. Adding an additional weapon gave you 1 more attack per roundm regardless of the nmumber you might normally have (of course, in 2.0 only fighters had more than 1 attack per round.)
And what about the middle of the fight pulling out a vial? It’s a thrown weapon, which means you use dex bonus, not strength. Of course, since a bonus is positive, you subtract it from the THAC0 (although I think technically it was added to the AC of the opponant, hence why it was positive.)
In 3.0/3.5, every AC bonus has a catagory, and, save for the dodge catagory, no two types of the same bonus can stack, only the higher bonus is used. In 2.0, for one there were less things to give bonuses to AC, and secondly, they usually made each thing have it’s own rule as to how it interacted. A cloak of resistance didn’t affect AC, it affected saving throws, I think you mean cloak of protection, which was said to not work if worn with armor of any kind, magic or no, unless the cloak gave a better AC. A ring, on the other hand, did work with armor. As did a necklace, which also worked with a ring. And for armor, you could have one type of armor and a shield. Any kind of armor or AC modifying clothing was considered your armor. If a magical shirt gave you +1 AC, then that’s the armor. If something else is worn, only the better of the two has effect.
Strength drains and plusses worked the same way. Minus one point of strength was still minus one point. If you had exceptional strength (which I admit was a dumb idea) then it goes to 17 (or maybe 18…I can’t remember.) Liekwise, adding a point brings it to 19. I admit, a table would probably be needed to find a new bonus here, unless, like me, you had most of the bonuses memorized. Besides, I never said a table wasn’t needed for abiltiy scores, just for THAC0 and to hit numbers.
Now, I never said 2.0 was better. Far from it, I think 3.0/3.5 is much more streamlined, I was just demonstrating that rules did exist for these situations, and if you just took the time to memorize all of them, it wasn’t that complicated. 
Hee. I like this description of M&M - though I’m a fan of both it, and Champions (which I, in turn, refer to as ‘GURPS done right’).
I should buy more M&M books - just own the core, and the Freedom City book. I think the thing I like best about M&M is that its interior artowkr is full-color, and done by actual, talented, comic book artists.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear; I was asking, rhetorically, about how 2E handled characters who had more than one weapon on their character sheet. My memory is that you had different formulae to figure out your attack bonuses with different weapons, and that it was far more complicated than the method for figuring it out with 3E. Similarly, figuring out how different bonuses to your AC interacted was far more complicated.
One of my favorite 2E rules, an improvement over 1E, was that characters could use weapons they weren’t proficient in. A magic-user could, in a pinch, pick up a longsword and try to gut a kobold with it. At a penalty, of course–that’s fine. In 1E, they couldn’t even try to gut a kobold with a longsword.
Of course, in 2E, the magic-user could pick up the sword, but he couldn’t carry it around. He was forbidden from making this be a regular tactic.
Why? Who knows?
3E allows a wizard to carry around a giant’s greatsword if he wants; if he’s willing to take the -8 penalty on every attack, he’s welcome to it.
Daniel
Not only should it still be 3D6 for abilities, the order is going to be SIWDCoCh till the day I die! (I can’t even remember the new order unless I think about it… SDCoIWCh…altho I may have Con and Dex reversed.)
No, you’re right. It goes:
Str
Dex
Con
Int
Wis
Cha
When I refer to abiltiy scores, I actually call them by their abbreviation.
“Say, what’s you con and dex, ralph?”
And when was it the other way? I have played since I was…6? (I’m 21 now.) We started when my brother bought at a garage sale a red, D&D boxed set this one.. It was the ‘basic’ rulebook set, if I remember right. And at that point, ithe abiltiy score listing was what it is now…so I’m guessing 1st edition AD&D, or the original D&D (since we had a newer version of plain ol’ D&D) had it that way?
sigh. That’d be AD&D, also known as 1st Edition, from about ten years before you were born.
I’ll second the M&M reccommendation. That is a sweet, sweet game. Does every superhero from Superman right down to the Punisher wonderfully.
It also illustrates the genius of the Open Game License. I’ave always shied away from D&D because it has some baggage I still don’t like (Character Classes, levels, randomized chargen, HPs, and what seemed an overly complex combat system). However, I got talked into M&M, and loved it. Now I’ve got a killer idea for a fantasy campaign (Kind of “The Matrix” meets “The Dark Tower”), but I need a nice generic fantasy system for it. Despite my previous concerns, I’m seriously considering picking up D&D for it, since I really like the system as presented in M&M. Anything I still don’t like, I’ll use M&M’s fix for.
Of course, i have to pick up the new Vampire and World of Darkness first. I’m a White Wolf fanboy first and foremost.
IIRC, under 2nd ed. multiclassing rules, it was even worse if the wizard used to be a fighter, because by using the abilities of his old school, he forfeited his experience for the entire adventure. Gutting that kobold would somehow blot out every thing he’d learned earlier when he helped his party kill Orcus. So, uh… how does that work in real-world terms, exactly?
Also: alignment tongues. I know, they haven’t been around since 1st edition, but an idea that stupid cannot be simply forgotten. Or forgiven.
If I understand correctly, Gary Gygax (bless his ailing heart) was pretty miffed about their exclusion from 3E, and wrote some supplements that reintroduced them and Thieve’s Cant (which makes marginally more sense).
Yeah, the new multiclassing rules are things of beauty: the old rules were needlessly complicated and counterintuitive.
Daniel
So you could create Rincewind, huh? Anyone want to take a stab at how this would look in terms of character stats, etc.?
Second question:
Like some of the other posters, I last played in the second edition days. So I’m confused about “taking levels in X.” How does this work? IIRC, you would finish an adventure, your DM would give you so-many XP’s, you’d look at the tables to look up your (hopefully) new level, and everything about you would be assumed to have magically changed overnight. OK, some DM’s made you go off and study for the level changes, but that wasn’t the normal case.
So, what are the mechanics of “taking a level” For instance, can you “take” more than one at a time? Are there still XP’s?
Yes, there are still XP’s, and they’ve streamlined the process of going up a level. You need to earn 1,000 times your current level of XP to go up. So, starting as a 1st level character, once you’ve earned 1,000 xp, you go up to 2nd level. Once you earn 2,000 more XP, you go up to 3rd. 3,000 more, you go up to 4th.
With the GM’s permission, you can go up a level in any class you want. Most of the Prestige Classes require a specific set of classes, skills, or feats before you can join, so you need to shop around the various classes/races/etc. to find out how to get there from 1st level.
There’s XP. And a chart that determines your level. You start at 0 XP … and 1st level. That means you have one level in a class of your choice. 1000 XP later, you’re a level 2 character. Both your levels might be in a single class, or they might be from separate classes. So you could be a Rogue 2, or a Rogue 1/ Fighter 1. The class abilities are designed to be modular and stack together.
Say you’re a 4th level cleric. You needed 6000 xp to reach 4th - same amount with any class. You have a Base Attack Bonus of +3 (equivalent to THAC0 17), Fortitude save +4, Reflex save +1, Will save +4. You can turn or rebuke undead and you can cast 4 1st level spells and 3 2nd level. You can use any armor or shield and use any Simple weapon (mace, spear, x-bow, etc.) You have 4d8hp/
You reach 10,000 xp and are now 5th level. Now, you can go up to Cleric 5. That wouldn’t five you any attack or saving throw bonuses (not until Cleric 6) but you’ll get another 1d8hp and some new spells, including a couple of 3rd level ones. However, you’ve decided that your combat skills are lacking, and you’re considering taking a klevel or two of Fighter. You look at the Fighter table, and see what a 1st level Fighter gets. His base attack bonus is +1, he gets a +2 to his Fortitude save, a bonus feat (think Weapon Proficiency), 1d10hp and the ability to use martial weapons (swords, halberds, longbows).
You decide to take the Fighter. You are now a Cleric4/Fighter1. Your Base Attack Bonus is +4, your saves are fort+6, ref+1, will+4; You have 4d8+1d10 hit points. You can use any armor and all martial weapons. You cast spells and turn undead as a 4th level Cleric. You get an extra Feat. You are a 5th level character.
Ever played Rolemaster, MERP, or Spacemaster? Characters have hit points, but in my many years of playing those systems, I have never, ever seen a PC or NPC die from hit point loss.
The crits get you first.
And the only time one of my PCs ever got close to death by hit point loss, it was because of many, many rounds of unchecked blood loss, while stunned from here to Christmas and unable to make the static maneuver necessary to staunch the flow…
Newbie!
I will forever roll my stats in the original order: SIWDCoCh.
Easy there, buddy, you’re venturing into the most confusing realm of 2nd edition. That’s actually not how multiclassing worked…that’s how DUAL classing worked.
Multiclassing was something that you had to decide if your character was going to do at creation. There was only a set number of combinations, and only certain races could be certain combos. I don’t have my 2nd edition sourcebooks here right now, but if i recall, the Paladin couldn’t multiclass, and the ranger, bard, and druid had limited multiclass potential. Also, two classes from the same group couldn’t multiclass. So you couldn’t have a ranger/fighter, or bard/thief. Also, humans couldn’t multiclass, only demihumans could. You’re XP was split evenly between the two levels, so when everyone else was at level 4 of X, you’re probably at level 2 X and level 2 Y (of course, since all the classes leveled up at different rates, this isn’t a guarentee.) Figuring out HP was more confusing, because if you leveled up in one, you didn’t get the normal HP, you rolled, divided by 2, then added half your con bonus. When you leveled in the next class, you did the same (and if you rounded down your con bonus before you rounded up this time.)
As far as abilities go, you had the abilities of both classes, but sometime those interfered with each other. For instance, you still could not wear armor and cast mage spells. In 3E, you CAN, in theory, but there is an arcane spell failure percent. Proficiencies worked like HP, you got half of what your class normally would.
Dual classing was for humans, NOT demihumans. It was like you described. You started out in one class, then STOPPED in that class, and started in another. You could no longer level up in the previous class, and I’m not sure about the XP thing for using abilities from the previous class. At any rate, I don’t think merely killing a kobold with a sword would do it, it would have to be something ONLY that class could do, like a thief picking a lock, or casting a spell. Everyone has the potential to kill something with a weapon, it’s not class-specific.
This thread has made me realize I have too many 2nd edition rules memorized…I guess that’s the price I pay for playing it for ten years (we started 2nd edition when I was 8, and I played until I was 18, took a D&D break, then played some 3E.)
Uhhh…am I being whooshed? Cuz that’s what he said.
If it were up to me, the stat order would be:
Str
Dex
Con
Cha
Int
Wis
Or:
Ability to affect the physical world
Ability to get around fast in the physical world
Steadfastness in the physical world
Ability to affect the mental world
Ability to get around fast in the mental world
Steadfastness in the mental world
Daniel