More proof that EGG went insane some time in the 80s.
The two major things that are affected by Ability Score as opposed to modifier are maximum spell level for spellcasters and feat requirments. The Feat requirements are deliberately odd so that there’s a difference between, Dex 13 and Dex 12, for example.
A rogue with Dex 12 and a fighter with Dex 13 both have the same bonus to init, and AC, ranged attacks, etc. But only the Fighter can Dodge. (take the Dodge feat, that is.)
Also you get one point of ability increase every 4 levels. If there were only modifiers, you’d either have to wait 8 levels, or take 1/2 a point of modifier after 4 levels.
The thing I love most about d20 is template creatures and creature advancement. No longer does the DM who wants to use a vampire for story purposes have to worry that his characters are too weak or too strong for a standard issue vampire. The monsters scale right alongside the characters.
Damn. I read that post three times to make sure it wasn’t the same order… :o
Please change my post to read “Me too!”
The Basic Set had it Str-Int-Wis-Dex-Con-Cha. I learned how to play with that book (I only started playing AD&D in the 90’s), and I still write them that way.
Miller, you’re making me nostalgic. That was the campiest aspect of first edition.
Could you imagine if it did work that way in the real world? Martha Stewart and the Taliban having a conversation in Lawful Evil…
Gah, that’s right. I forgot all about the dual-classing/multi-classing dichotomy. That had to be the single stupidest rule in 2nd ed. And after reading this thread, that’s really saying something.
It’d make politics a lot easier, though:
Politician: My administration will stand for family values and safer streets!
Reporter: Sir, if that’s the case, would you mind re-stating that in Lawful Good?
Politician: <flees>
To add a few things in that have changed in D&D since second edition, which I personally like the best:
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No more munchkining low-level townspeople for 2 or 3 xp. Once a creature is far enough below your level it is worth no experience to you. It’d be like swatting a fly; you don’t realistically learn much about combat by doing so. This keeps parties from running around slaughtering the innocent because they happen to be worth a few dribs and drabs of experience.
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Charts for designing your own magical and cursed magic items. A single chart of cursed items (like the backbiter spear) is included for reasons of nostalgia, but now anything can have a curse on it, and the manual tells you how to do it. Gone are the players who pick up a magical girdle and force the NPC to wear it before a player will try it on; now they must fear everything the DM throws at them. In fact, the players may have to occasionally decide if a given item’s benefit is worth the associated curse.
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Charts and rules for giving creatures and monsters effective character skills. You can build a vampire-centaur-monk or a goblin-werewolf-ranger or a storm giant-lich-archmage. Gone are the players who yawn and say “oh, trolls again? According to the manual they do X and Y, and they’ll have at least Z in treasure. Torches out everyone.” Now the players must react to what the creature might be, because they won’t know for certain.
Gurps is very easy to play, once you’ve set it up. Setting it up is a bitch, PC wise and GM wise. And I’m not just talking chargen, I’m talking designing the whole campaign setting. What rules do you choose?
Get the M&M Annual, Gamera. It’s got variable point weaknesses, and a few other missing bits and options. Worth every penny, despite being thin. Time of Crisis is good too, even award winning. It lets you start in an established world (Freedom City) and end it in your own universe.
Other good D20 games: Spycraft, and the associated Stargate SG-1 game. It’s a modern superspy game. Using D20 rules. And it works well. My players still love the chase we did in Florida. (Picture the PCs as the A-Team fighting Cobra, in Miami Vice Florida.) Jet-skis and a boston whaler against an air-boat. You know, one of those rafts with the giant fan on it? Eventually beat it by having a guy in the jet-ski wipe out sideways across the deck of the air-boat.
I rather like the new world setting, Eberron. It’s very post-WWIish.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I’ve played games that didn’t use hit points before, I just don’t see how hp in d20 are somehow “vestigal” the way ability scores are. Abilities are largely overshadowed by a new mechanic: the ability bonus. I don’t see any mechanic at play in d20 that overshadows the HP system. If it were taken out, it would radically alter how the game works, and something would have to be created from scratch to replace it.
I always try to roll up SIWDCoChCom and end up with an extra score for my d20 characters. 
I still don’t see how a fighter would suddenly “take a level” as a magic user without training.
Many of the complaints here about 1st and 2nd edition were easily circumnavigated by rule number one: the DM uses or changes the rules he wants to.
So far, by your descriptions the only really silly thing about 3.5 seems to be that monsters can have specialty classes. Lich-ninja-giant toad-bard-death knight? Sounds stupid.
The Union of Disgusting Characters story reminded me of another change: no automatic XPs for finding treasure (you could earn them if finding the treasure was a goal of the mission, but the amount would be up to the DM, rather than a straight 1gp=1XP). Makes sense in real world terms; it’s perfectly possible to be filthy rich and still be a clueless beginner.
Why? Why!?!?! Because he is a wizard! Everyone knows that wizards must use staves and daggers! It’s only common sense! He would be booted out of all wizard clubs if news got around that he was profaning their craft by using a sword!
I do not like the features that so many of you seem to like. Everyone can use a sword? Everyone can get levels in multiple classes? Every race can be every class? Then where is the diffference between classes and races? Seems like everything would mush together if the only difference was a stat point or two here or there.
Don’t like the sound of these “Feats” either. Nope. Don’t like it one bit. Fighters fought. Swung their weapon and rolled their dice. No fancy extra “feats”.
But I’m just an old curmudgeon who hasn’t played in almost 20 years.
I used to do that too, except I’d ALWAYS roll up an extremely high (like 20 or so) Com, which would never get played that way by the DM, so it made me feel I was losing some “luck” in rolling that 18 (+2 for high Ch:))
You can do it that way, if you want. The group I game with just assumes the training takes place “off stage” between adventures.
How about a clan of vampire ninjas? A village of yuan-ti/elven half-bloods? A pride of celestial lions lounging on the plains of Elysium? A treant druid? Like everything else in the game, wether it’s cool or silly is entirely up to you.
This fundamental aspect has not changed. Once again, the books specifically tell players to consult their gamesmaster if they wish to know if certain rules or classes will be accepted. Prestige classes are included as examples as well, and again the book mentions that it’s up to the DM and the world he creates whether any or all of them will be appropriate. The “critical hit” feature is included, in several variations, as an optional rule. Scattered throughout the DM’s Guide are sidebars explaining why certain rules are included and what the consequences are of ignoring them—for instance, it explains how giving monsters “critical hit” capability can potentially make the game too difficult.
The only thing I don’t particularly like is the constant reference to grid squares.
See, now you’ve given me cause to doubt your honesty - or your sanity. 
GURPS also has balance issues.
I will look for the M&M Annual - I seem to recall the local comic store had one for a good long while… don’t remember if I’ve seen it recently.
I didn’t say it didn’t have balance issues. I said once you’ve got everything plotted, the entire game boils down to “Roll lower than.” The trick is to get everything plotted. PLAYING it is easy. Or fairly so.
Sometimes in our campaigns we have the “Luck” score, rolled up the same way we roll up abilities (4d6 drop the lowest die). Luck is rolled separately from other abilities and that’s the one you get. Roll a three, tough. (D&D 3.5)
Luck is used to decide who gets attacked when there’s two PCs next to a monster, etc.
Everyone can’t use a sword. A wizard has access only to simple weapons like daggers, staves and crossbows, unless he wishes to take as one of his feats, martial weapons proficiency. Now, characters only get a feat once every three levels (wizards also get bonus feats every 5 levels, but they have to be magic-related), so taking martial weapons proficiency cuts into other possibilities, like magic feats that let you create magic items or feats that make it easier to hit someone with your ranged spells.
Yes, everyone can get levels in multiple classes, with a few exceptions. If you stop being a monk, paladin, and maybe druid, you can never go back to them. The difference between an elven rogue and a human rogue? Elves get some bonuses to skills and free weapon proficiencies for example. Small creatures like gnomes and halflings get some benefits over larger creatures, but their weapons are smaller and do less damage. Some races are just plain better at some classes than others (halfling rogue, half-orc barbarian, gnome bard just to name a few).
The Feats are one of the key ways to differentiate between characters. You can have two fighters who are completely different from one another just because of their feats. One may pick feats to help him with mounted combat while another concentrates soley on things to help him in melee. A wizard may pick feats that let him make magic items while another picks feats that lets him cast spells under almost any circumstances (while in a silence area, while held, when all material components are lost).