So, what's the big deal about bilingualism?

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Miller]
What would be the point?
[/QUOTE]

As was mentioned upthread, it wouldn’t change what language day-to-day business was being done in. No one is going to walk into the local market and demand that all Spanish conversations cease. It will effect official transations.

How many languages is a school expected to teach algebra in? How many Swahili speaking 10th graders do you need to have before you have to have a Swahili speaking chemestry teacher. How about the courts? Do we need to have all court documents available in all languages? How would you even do that? Should Army Corp of Engineers public meetings include a Japanese translator? How many languages are voters ballots printed in?

An official language is more about how the business of the government is done. No one really cares what language you are texting in.

22

[QUOTE=chappachula]
The French and English speakers in Ontario hate each other. They have separate cultures, separate political parties and have twice tried (and very nearly succeeded ) to destroy the united nation of Canada by splitting it into two separate countries.
[/QUOTE]

Huh? :dubious: :smack:

Sorry, my friend, but there’s something you severely misunderstood about Canadian politics and identity debates. French and English speakers in Ontario don’t vote for different parties (well, maybe Franco-Ontarians are more likely to vote for the Liberals, but if anything that’s only a slight tendency), and both francophones and anglophones in Ontario are convinced federalists who certainly don’t want Canada to split in two different countries.

And in any case, as John Mace points out, comparing this situation with Canada is completely useless since it has nothing in common. Canada is a country with an official bilingualism policy, but two large linguistic groups that for the most part live in different parts of the country and don’t really know or care about what the other one is doing (with the exception of a few bilingual cities). What we have in the US is, as tomndebb says, a situation where immigrants come to the country and, in a few generations (which is too slow for some people), pretty much integrate into the host population.

English in the US isn’t threatened by the influx of Spanish-speaking immigrants. They will in time learn English and integrate. Until then, there probably isn’t any harm in offering some services in Spanish to those it could help.

Also count me as someone who doesn’t see what making English the official language of the US would change. If I move to the US, I fully expect that I will have to communicate with the government in English. English is already the de facto official language. Putting it into law isn’t a racist move, but it’s also a mostly pointless move, I believe.

23

[QUOTE=chappachula]

So what kind of “problems” are we talking about?
Well, look at Canada. The French and English speakers in Ontario hate each other. They have separate cultures, separate political parties and have twice tried (and very nearly succeeded ) to destroy the united nation of Canada by splitting it into two separate countries.

It is not unreasonable for Americans to want to prevent problems like Ontario, before it is too late
[/QUOTE]

Well, if you’re going to make a case against bilingualism and attempt to use Canada as an example, you might want to inform yourself about the issue rather than just blow smoke. There is no problem in Ontario, nor are there separate political parties there at the federal level, and I don’t believe there’s an issue at the provincial level either. Quebec has one party in the federal government but it will never attain natiional power. Most provinces have political parties which aren’t represented at the federal level; Quebec has a provincial party whose principal policy is to separate Quebec but that’s a little difficult to do.

24

[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
If the majroity of immigrants learn English anyway, then what’s the problem with making it the official language?
[/QUOTE]
Because it then becomes one more point on which the ignorant can hang their prejudices and bigotry.

What does making English “official” do if it is not enforced in some way to penalize people who do not speak it?

Do we throw New Mexico out of the union?
Do we prohibit providing translators for court cases (thereby alienating anyone–such as foreign tourists–who get into the legal system)?
Do we prohibit teaching foreign languages in schools?

It is either a pointless example of xenophobia or it becomes a very real basis of bigotry or oppression. Since it is not necessary, I oppose it. Since there is no group that is actually moving toward a refusal to speak English, (well, the Floridian Cuban immigrants are, but the Puertorriqueños and Central Americans who are coming in to take our low-paying jobs are not), the cries of “bi-lingual” America are just silly.

25

[QUOTE=chappachula]

So what kind of “problems” are we talking about?
Well, look at Canada. The French and English speakers in Ontario hate each other. They have separate cultures, separate political parties and have twice tried (and very nearly succeeded ) to destroy the united nation of Canada by splitting it into two separate countries.
[/QUOTE]

This is news to me… Living In Ontario I do not know of any French party. I do know of French speaking Communities but there is no hate except the type espoused by the usual pinheads who hate anything different than themselves. Yeah once in a while you get the loud mouth who complains about two languages on cereal boxes or other trivial crap but there is no real tension in Ontario that I am aware of.

If you are refering to Quebec Seperatists then that is another ball of wax, even then the Seperatist parties are more about the Provence becoming a seperate state and do little and care even less about French Canadians outside of Quebec.
The Only Official Bilingual Province in Canada is New Brunswick and Of the many French speaking Acaidians I have dealt with, I have never come across animosity to myself from them. Their feelings on the Quebecois is another story which as an Anglo I find odd because I figure they have a shared language and culture but regionalism is regionalism.

As for any French/English being produced by Official Bilingualism that is erronious. Official Bilingualism was not adapted until the 1960s after the findings of the Bi and Bi Commisson in which it was determined the new Quebec nationalism stemmed from the lack of Government aid for the French Speaking population. Even in Quebec itself many institutions and workplaces were treated as English only and the French were treated as second class citizens.

I think Official Bilingualism may have worked it it had been implemented at an earlier time. Instead it was too little too late and the Seperatist movement
was already gaining momentum by the time anything had been enacted.

26

[QUOTE=kingpengvin]

As for any French/English being produced by Official Bilingualism that is erronious.
[/QUOTE]

That should read French/ English tensions

27

The rules of this forum prevent me from fully expressing my opinion on your analogy. So I’ll just point out that an analogy requires that the two issues being discussed have some degree of similarity. Your analogy lacks this.

If you look at the actual facts, you’d find that the current wave of Latin American immigrants are a smaller percentage of the population then the wave of European immigrants were when they arrived. And that current Latin American immigrants are learning English at a much more rapid rate then past immigrant groups did.

I half agree with you here. It was ugly racism when there was past prejudice against past immigrants. But I feel the racism is just as ugly when it’s current prejudice against current immigrants.

28

[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
Because a candidate can stand up in public and say he’s opposed to bilingualism. Or he can say he wants tougher enforcement against immigration. Or he can say that he favors law and order. Or he can say he likes states rights. And then he can piously declare that nothing in his posistion should be considered as supporting racism. But the racists in the audience will know who their candidate is.
[/QUOTE]
Or the voters don’t really know what “bilingualism” means anyway, and assume it means they will have to learn Spanish. He might as well point at an opponent’s resume and say, “He has been a pedagogue for 20 years, and he is proud of it!”

29

While we’re at it, can we get rid of that damned American Sign Language, too? Why can’t those deaf people sign in ENGLISH?!

30

First of all, I think Tom Tancredo is an idiot.

But I don’t really think his objection is totally racist. I think it’s about the cost of having one official language (English) but still having to do a translation of everything into another language (Spanish–at least, in Colorado).

Now I have had the experience of walking into a store where everybody spoke only Spanish. The people checking out spoke Spanish and the people standing in line spoke Spanish and when a new line was opened this was announced in Spanish.

Is this store in Mexico? No. Is it in a traditionally Spanish-speaking part of the country? Well, it’s in Denver. A few blocks from my house, which is not in a traditionally Spanish-speaking neighborhood. When I moved here, 15 years ago, you might hear a word or two of Spanish in this store, from the occasional customer. Now it’s all Spanish. If you shop there, you pretty much have to learn Spanish, even if you grew up in the neighborhood.

A friend of mine lost her job as a pharmacy tech because she could only speak one language, and that language, here in America, was English. They replaced her with a tech who is technically bilingual but whose grasp of English is not that great. She speaks Spanish. (My friend also knows Spanish, but didn’t really trust her Spanish that much to deal with people asking questions in Spanish about their medications, and she was fired when she said so. It wasn’t that she just plain didn’t know Spanish.)

So, when you see this happening, you do begin to think that maybe Tancredo has a point.

It is not that I mind learning another language. If I moved to Mexico I would certainly work on my Spanish; if I moved to France I would work on my French. So why can’t the people who move here be the ones who learn another language?

31

As regards to the “press 1 for English” complaint - if companies want to provide service because there’s a demand for it, how are you going to stop it? I’ve had people in all seriousness say that they shouldn’t have to press a button - 1) Oooh, big hardship, pressing a button. You could sprain a finger and 2) companies are still going to provide other language service if people ask for it. So if you don’t want to press a button it’s “If you want service in English, please wait while we run down the list of other languages”? That sure saves time.

32

I think part of the reason for this cultural reaction is that some recent immigrants are quite visible about their desire not to assimilate (flying other flags, etc.)

According to my memory, this was not common a generation ago.

33

[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze]
A friend of mine lost her job as a pharmacy tech because she could only speak one language, and that language, here in America, was English. They replaced her with a tech who is technically bilingual but whose grasp of English is not that great. She speaks Spanish. (My friend also knows Spanish, but didn’t really trust her Spanish that much to deal with people asking questions in Spanish about their medications, and she was fired when she said so. It wasn’t that she just plain didn’t know Spanish.)

So, when you see this happening, you do begin to think that maybe Tancredo has a point.
[/QUOTE]

So, his point would be what? The pharmacy should keep your friend employed despite her not being able to serve the clientele they way the pharmacy wants? You say she didn’t trust her Spanish that much to deal with people asking questions in Spanish about their medications, so the customers should be forced to trust their English in order to ask questions about their medications?

Any scheme that would prevent that pharmacy from hiring Spanish-speaking or bilingual employees is one that I am firmly against.

34

[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze]
So, when you see this happening, you do begin to think that maybe Tancredo has a point.
[/quote]

When you see what happen? It’s obvious that the demographics in your neighborhood have change, and the store changed along with it. Do you expect the government to step in demand that they stop speaking Spanish? And your friend learned a valuable lesson-- don’t discount your skill in another language. Or, spend some time studying Spanish a bit more so you can be confident in speaking about the medications.

But they are learning English. If you moved to France, how long do you think it would take you before you were fluent? Quite some time.

35

[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
Because a candidate can stand up in public and say he’s opposed to bilingualism. Or he can say he wants tougher enforcement against immigration. Or he can say that he favors law and order. Or he can say he likes states rights. And then he can piously declare that nothing in his posistion should be considered as supporting racism. But the racists in the audience will know who their candidate is.
[/QUOTE]
You nailed it. It’s a means of appealing to racists, without officially being racist.

The Mexican immigrants are following the same pattern as every other wave of immigrants. The first generation barely assimilates at all, the second is bilingual, the third barely speaks anything but English. I’ve heard that a worry in the Mexican immigrant community is that the next generation is assimilating too much, not that they are refusing to assimilate.

As for making English the official language, I’m also of the camp that says either it won’t make a difference and is a pointless sop thrown to the racists, or it will be enforced and will be a disaster. The possibilities for such a law to cause damage are endless; the chance of it doing good pretty much zip.

[QUOTE=Tastes of Chocolate]
An official language is more about how the business of the government is done. No one really cares what language you are texting in.
[/QUOTE]
Plenty of people do; I’ve listened to my share of people complaining about how they are sure that “those people” talking in a foreign language are making fun of them/plotting against them/whatever. In my experience, quite a few of the people who support such laws think that non-English languages shouldn’t be spoken anywhere, even in people’s homes.

36

>Because a candidate can stand up in public and say he’s opposed to bilingualism. Or he can say he wants tougher enforcement against immigration. Or he can say that he favors law and order. Or he can say he likes states rights.

Well, let’s be fair. A candidate could take any of these positions for nonracist reasons (except perhaps “states rights”, which according to some references is or was specifically a code phrase for race-based slavery, and even so there is an argument for more per-state legislation). If some voters have racist motivations to support that candidate, shame on them. But the issues aren’t racism per se. Law and order are perfectly good things, as far as they literally go.

37

[QUOTE=John Mace]
When you see what happen? It’s obvious that the demographics in your neighborhood have change, and the store changed along with it. Do you expect the government to step in demand that they stop speaking Spanish? And your friend learned a valuable lesson-- don’t discount your skill in another language. Or, spend some time studying Spanish a bit more so you can be confident in speaking about the medications.
But they are learning English. If you moved to France, how long do you think it would take you before you were fluent? Quite some time.
[/QUOTE]

How can you tell they are learning English? Did somebody tell you that? 'Cause I don’t see them learning English, and in fact, what I see is me, learning Spanish, so I can keep up in my native country where the official language is one I’ve spoken all my life.

38

[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze]
'Cause I don’t see them learning English, and in fact, what I see is me, learning Spanish, so I can keep up in my native country where the official language is one I’ve spoken all my life.
[/QUOTE]

How is a president supposed to protect you from competition and having to “keep up”?

39

[QUOTE=kingpengvin]
The Only Official Bilingual Province in Canada is New Brunswick and Of the many French speaking Acaidians I have dealt with, I have never come across animosity to myself from them. Their feelings on the Quebecois is another story which as an Anglo I find odd because I figure they have a shared language and culture but regionalism is regionalism.
[/quote]

I believe I can answer your interrogations, but I know that it will make me deviate a lot from the subject of the thread, so sorry about the hijack. For those who aren’t interested in bilingualism in Canada or in what kingpengvin is talking about, you may safely skip this post.

Up until, say, the 60s, francophone Quebecers considered themselves an important part of the French-Canadian community and were dedicated to the preservation of French in Canada. But at the same time as the rest of Canada was developing a new identity based on bilingualism and multiculturalism, Quebecers started to move towards a more territorially-based national identity, while strengthening the position of the French language as Quebec’s common language (bill 101, etc.) As a result, many French-Canadians felt that Quebecers had betrayed them, especially when it became apparent that many Quebec nationalists feel that the federal government shouldn’t involve itself in language issues, while minority French-Canadians consider that only the federal government can guarantee their rights. I remember hearing that in the late 80s, the Bourassa Liberal government (a much more nationalist government than the current Liberal government) supported the Albertan government in their attempt to challenge their obligation to offer French-language education. Remember that at the same time Bourassa was trying to defend parts of Quebec’s language legislation before the Supreme Court of Canada. Anyway, many Franco-Albertans remembered this as a betrayal. I assume some Acadians may feel the same way, even though with their numbers their situation is actually quite enviable.

Alternatively, maybe it’s interprovincial rivalry, but I must say that I haven’t heard of a Quebec-New Brunswick rivalry as much as I’ve heard of the Quebec-Ontario rivalry. That’s also something that may explain the relations between Quebecers and Franco-Ontarians. Apparently some Franco-Ontarians consider those who move to Quebec as having given up. Of course it’s easier to live in French in Quebec than in Ontario, but I’m sure that interprovincial rivalry also has a part to play in this.

This said, it should be mentioned that many Acadians take up a prominent place in Quebec culture. It happens that Franco-Ontarians and other French-Canadians find themselves on Quebec’s cultural radar, but usually people don’t really notice that they aren’t Quebecers. Not so for Acadians; most Quebecers are aware of the existence of Acadians, and many can name famous Acadian figures. So if your Acadians don’t like Quebec, well, at least Quebec recognizes them, which is more than what many French-Canadians groups can say.

Oh, and by the way, Acadian culture is rather different from Quebec culture. Remember that the Acadians have been a separate people since even before the Deportation in the 18[sup]th[/sup] century. As well, the dialects of French spoken in Quebec and Acadia are quite different.

I think it’s safe to say that today francophone Quebecers don’t consider themselves as merely a protected minority in Canada, which is what official bilingualism would make them. This is, as I said, part of the reason for the coldness that may exist between them and the francophone minorities in Canada. I don’t know what would have happened had official bilingualism been enacted earlier, but I’m willing to bet that the rise of Quebec nationalism was inevitable. Of course, that is of course what I’m going to say, since it is part of my own political philosophy. :wink:

40

[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze]
How can you tell they are learning English? Did somebody tell you that?
[/QUOTE]
Take a look at the census report to which I linked earlier (.pdf). Scroll down to page 4.
It shows that in 2000, of 46,951,595 people who spoke any language other than English in the home, 25,631,188 spoke English very well and 10,333,556 spoke English well, leaving 7,620,719 who spoke it poorly and only 3,366,132 who did not speak it at all. If we combine the “not at all” and the “poorly” figures, (which may not be a legitimate combination, but we’ll use it), we find 11 million people who are not proficient in English. Now, look to the left where the 1990 figures are posted. In that year, there were 31,844,979 people who did not speak English in the home. So the number of people for whom English was not their primary language went up by 15 million, but the number of people who could not speak it well is still only 11 million. Someone has to be learning English. And, as I noted in my earlier post, over 70% of the people for whom English is not their first language speak English at least “well.”

In any specific locality, particularly one with a very recent immigrant wave, it may appear that the immigrants are choosing to not learn English, but in total, the numbers indicate that they will do so. Their kids will learn it at school. Other will pick it up at work, reinforced by TV and radio.