So what's your opinion on the existence of extraterrestrial UFOs?

Great Debates
1

Since the “Do you believe in ghosts/the paranormal?” thread caught fire, got hundreds of responses, and even a “Bastard Son of Do You Believe in ghosts/the paranormal?” Pit thread, I figured I’d open it up to UFOs.

Nobody of course can deny the existence of UFOs since it only means unidentified flying objects; a weird insect or bird you’re not familiar with could technically be a UFO- so I’m taking it further: does anybody believe in UFOs as extraterrestrial visitors (or other wise “not of this time/not of this world”- whether interdimensional or time travelers or whatever)? Does anybody believe that there’s a deliberate cover-up of UFOs? Or that Roswell was more than top-secret spy balloon technology?

As with ghosts, most of the “evidence” is anecdotal, but certainly not all. There are any number of pilots and even some astronauts who’ve referred to unusual objects. (Mercury astronaut Gordon Cooper claimed to have encountered green objects when a fighter pilot in 1951- lots of debate as to what he stated in later claims- while Edgar Mitchell, “6 of 12” men to walk on the moon (and the man who spent the longest time on the lunar surface) said earlier this week he believes Roswell was a UFO crash (and that a clairvoyant teenager healed him of a kidney condition long distance… m’kay).
There is some scientific evidence, such as the spotting on radar of two of the “walnut shaped” objects that terrified Kenju Terauchi, the veteran pilot (29 years) of Japan AL Flight 1628, who described a third object as twice the size of an aircraft carrier. There’s tons of photographic evidence, though admittedly whether they’re real or not I could probably make a better UFO pic on my computer and plop Abe Lincoln in the middle of it, so it doesn’t really “prove” anything.

So what do you think (especially those who participated in the GHOSTIES threads)?

As for personal experiences: I’ve had some, but nothing spectacular and nothing I can say “other worldly”. I’ve seen lots of unexplained lights that didn’t look like stars or aircraft over the years, once while watching with a large group of people in a grocery store parking lot, but nothing that involved seeing an actual craft up close or little green men or a time traveling Nipsey Russell tossing us chewing gum or anything. When I was little I remember my mother, sister, and brother being shocked by a light that seemed to float directly over our car one night when were driving through the back woods, speeding up and slowing down when we did, then taking off; frankly I don’t remember the light as well as I remember the reaction of the others in car, but my sister- usually an extremely skeptical person when it comes to matters not pertaining to religion or politics- still remembers it as one of the weirdest of her life.
For the incidents I personally remember well the most impressive was a triangular-jagged black object I saw while on the beach in Alabama 20+ years ago that I’m now almost positive was some form of Nighthawk (probably from the naval and USAF bases all through the area). So, as with skeptics in the ghosts thread, "I got nothin’ " in the “anecdotal evidence” department personally, but there are most definitely lots of really weird encounters described by reasonable people.
Ultimately I’m skeptical, I don’t know, but as with ghosts I cannot dismiss all of the anecdotal evidence as easily explicable/delusion/illusion/coincidence/bad memory. I just hope that if we are being visited by aliens they aren’t missionaries or, worse, some sort of salespeople.

2

Sampiro, Hon, after that last pile on, might be better to let it rest abit before creating a new frothpit sensation.

3

In other words you’re just going to do what the government wants you to do and pretend noTHING’S GOING ON HUH?! WELL FINE!!! But when it’s your eggs being harvested so that they can make a mutant hybrid that’s part you, part Robert Mitchum, part Vietnamese snakefish, and part Gamma Epsilon IV ‘gaseous cloud girl’ DON’T EXPECT ME TO COME INTERDIMENSIONALLY RUNNING TO INJECT YOU WITH TRACKING MECHANISMS!

4

It’s a big universe, and it would surprise me if there were no intelligent beings other than us, but it’s a helluva long way from here to even the nearest stars. Also, there’s no credible evidence for any UFOs.

ET spaceships are more plausible than ghosts on an intellectual level, but there’s no evidence they actually exist.

5

Well, since you brought the possibillity of a me-n-loverly Robert Mitchum hybrid up, how could I say no? Ya picked my right Swoony dreamboat there…

My one experience with seeing something that was what might be a UFO was back in the early 70’s. My next door neighbor and I were playing baseball out in the street, age 11. It was about sunset, and we both saw a weird gold dumbell shaped object, a vertical dumbell, two orbs connected, fly over us, and then hover for awhile, quite high up in the sky. It was just weird looking, we both saw it, and it definitely stopped and hovered before scooting off.

I’ve never seen anything like that vertical dumbell shape in any UFO sighting illustrations, and, if anyone can say now what it was as to a weather data collecting apparatus of the time, please do. It was freaky, but at 11, we were not on any sort of hallucinogenics.

6

There are certainly aliens (by which I mean alien people, not just the equivalent of blue-green algae) out there, but their homes are at least tens of lightyears away, and possibly as much as hundreds of millions of lightyears away. Now, I’m not going to say that it’s impossible for them to cross those distances, nor that they would have no interest in us: It would be just barely possible with technology not too far beyond our own, and who’s to say what the motivations of an alien race might be? But if they are coming here, they must have pretty good technology. Either they want us to know of their existence, or they don’t, and either way, their technology must be advanced far enough for them to do a better job of it than the UFO believers claim. If they were here and wanted us to know about them, they could easily make themselves known to every single human on the planet, no matter what group tried a cover-up. And if they were here and didn’t want us to know about them, it would be even easier for them to hide so completely that we would have no clue whatsoever that they were here.

As for Roswell, there most certainly was a government conspiracy to cover up things they didn’t want us to know about, but the irony is that the “alien spacecraft” rumor was itself part of the conspiracy. I have to give them credit, too: They played it extremely well. Most of the people who might have actually stumbled on the truth, that it was a Cold War operation to attempt to detect nuclear bomb tests, were instead caught up in the ET rumors, and had their credibility shot among the rest of the population.

7

The first thing I believe is that what I think about the subject has no bearing on the actual facts: extraterrestrial UFOs either exist or they don’t, and my opinion won’t have any influence on that.

Other than that, exactly what Larry Borgia said.

8

In order to believe in the existence of ETs you would first need to believe that it’s possible to overcome or bypass, with great technological ease, the current light speed limit required by the current Theory Of (Somewhere Around) Everything - TO(SA)E not yet joined to the Einstein model of the Theory of Relativity which prohibits Faster Than Light (FTL) travel.

If the prohibition against FTL can be easily bypassed by means of form of high technology as yet undiscovered on Earth;
Then, it follows, that there are enormous numbers of ET spaceships travelling around this vast galaxy.

If there are enormous numbers of ET spaceships flying around this vast galaxy;
Then, it follows, that large numbers of strange looking aircraft must have been observed in the skies by many humans throughout the brief span of recorded history. (Has this happened? Didn’t Charles Fort have a collection of such stories?).

If large numbers of ET aircraft have visited Earth in the past and continue to visit;
Then, it follows, that there is a high probability that contacts with life forms on Earth, whether to collect cattle rectums and other body parts or to make fun of the local yokels (contactees) would probably have occurred with a fairly high frequency.

If there have been a large number of ET contacts made by humans throughout history, do the majority of such accounts indicate that the ETs are:

  1. Serious minded;
  2. Frivolous minded - Liars but otherwise Harmless;
  3. Frivolous minded - Mocking liars, but otherwise harmless except where the local yokel is encouraged to write a book, go on a lecture tour and start some kind of bizarro cult. Has this ever happened?
  4. Hostile and malignant;

No stories have ever come to light to indicate that number 1. on the list has ever occurred and it would be most unwise to want to come into contact with any of the other types of ET on the list, assuming any at all have made it to our solar system.

Conclusion: It’s pointless to waste any time thinking about it.

9

While there is a strong possibility that there is other life in the universe, the UFOs on earth have nothing to do with aliens. There is no actual evidence they are.

10

I’ve never personally seen anything UFO-ish, but my husband’s uncle was one of the engineers who designed the first space shuttle, and he won’t tell us anything specific, but he says that the government is covering up alien stuff. He’s kind of a jokey guy, but he was serious about this. He says not to doubt it.

I realize this is not going to convince anyone else, but I know the guy, and he’s been involved with NASA for a very long time (although he’s retired now) and I trust him on this despite my lack of any real evidence to back it up.

Why with great technological ease? Why would it have to be easy to be possible?

Why? Why assume they would be concerned about whether or not people saw them? I see people making big assumptions about what aliens would or would not want, and what kind of technology, exactly, they would have, and I’m not seeing where these assumptions are coming from.

11

Aliens? Out there somewhere? Yes.

UFOs being aliens bothering us? No. Before the idea of aliens, there must have been people claiming weird shit happened to them. It’s just that nowadays it’s aliens. What was it a thousand years ago? Demons?

12

If they didn’t care whether people saw them, and made no attempt one way or the other, we’d still have a needle-and-haystack problem to try to find them. Space is deep. Even if a telescope were looking in just precisely the right direction to see a speck of light from their spaceship, we still wouldn’t be able to distinguish that speck of light from an asteroid.

13

As a matter of fact, yep. Or angels, depending on whether those who claimed to witness the events felt they were malevolent or benevolent. Carl Jung actually referred to UFOs as “technological angels”, believing they were the same experiences that people had described for centuries but revised as the paradigm of “real power” and hope and mystery among the masses shifted from the divine/supernatural to technology/scientific.

Interestingly, after the Reformation and before the 19th century they were more likely to just be described as “weird flying things” without real commentary. The “black globes” seen over Switzerland in 1566 that were said to appear to be fighting each other (contemporary woodcut)- no real religious explanation theorized to my knowledge- or the “glowing wheels” (described as such) seen over Hamburg in 1697- a reference to Ezekiel in one count but no real religious significance attributed otherwise.

14

Interesting. I just spent some time this past week hanging out with a “rocket scientist”* who works for NASA currently, and claimed a security clearance “the same as the President holds”. He was, in all our chats, intelligent and not-kooky in the slightest (and trust me, we were hanging out with a lot of very kooky people - kooky was *normal *at this place!). The one thing he said which made me do a double take was that aliens landing at Roswell happened, no doubt at all. He was quick to disclaim any specific knowledge - he never read any classified stuff straight out of Roswell - but the bits and pieces he’s picked up over his years in the field, as well as the information made public to all of us, have made him certain that, in his words, “Roswell happened. Period.”

I’ve always believed, as has already been said, that there’s got to be life out there somewhere. To believe otherwise just seems incredibly egotistical. But to be honest, before I talked to this guy, I did think that UFO sightings and Roswell in particular were either hype or misinterpretations. But now I’m not so sure…

*He wants to quit his job and go to medical school to become a P.A. I told him he totally has to do it, if only so that he can be the best qualified person in the world to declare whether or not something is “rocket surgery”. :smiley:

15

Let me put it this way: It wouldn’t surprise me. I’m much more receptive to the idea of Aliens appearing now and again than I am to things like ghosts, but the thing that tends to keep me from flat out accepting it is all the wild theories that seem to come along with it.

I watch on the odd occasion shows like UFO Files and UFO Hunters and other stuff related (there was a brilliant one on the History channel with an Alien world-control conspiracy where the British narrator pretty much mocked the interviewees while presenting their ideas). The thing is, UFO Hunters is pretty good for the most part, then all of a sudden out of… necessary profanity… fucking nowhere they pull out the dowsing rods (or similar). Fair enough, I’ll disagree with this conclusion but the other evidence makes you think at leas… wait, what? No! Now you’re trying to tie in your asinine theory with the perfectly reasonable, somewhat persuasive evidence you pulled out before!? You ALMOST had something there and then you had to go and ruin it, thanks guys. There was one with people with odd, independently corroborated sightings, and they had this possible contact theme underlying but not really brought up much. Suddenly, the leader guy with the sunglasses brings up something about the people with this experiences being alien human hybrids. I felt bad for the team, because they almost look patently offended nine times out of then when he brings that up. In fact I vaguely recall one member pulling him aside and basically going watchutalkinbout!? But sometimes it’s met with less reluctance, so you have to doubt some of their conclusions, and on occasion the presentation of the evidence.

Other than the plain kooky stuff though I’ll say I believe it’s possible.* Unlikely, sure, and I doubt it’s happened more than a handful of times if it ever DID happen at all. But it’s not nearly as unlikely as, say, Jesus coming down and smiting the planet.

*Okay, the kooky stuff is POSSIBLE, but let’s face it: A reporter for a UFO magazine getting only second hand knowledge and actually understanding the principles behind the technology are like a reporter doing a story on the LHC understanding the math behind the Higgs Boson, chiefly through interviewing the reclusive Amish acquaintance of a scientist working there. I figure if our top professors with access to these materials as WELL as their knowledge don’t claim to understand this stuff, a bunch of journalists sure as hell won’t. In fact, the more educated people who make appearances on UFO Files - not Hunters - (there’s a physics professor I can’t recall the name of) have theories that, you know, actually pretend to break as few rules as possible with the disclaimer “how they break these rules? I don’t know; I’d be banging bimbos in a spa near Betelgeuse right now if I knew that.” And it’s not just distance traveling, they’ve come up with various alternative ideas so they can skip that little problem (I haven’t watched the show in a bit though so I don’t remember many of these methods).

Whelp, that about sums it up, I’m ready for my “kook whom has lost all credibility” lapel pin now.

16

To quote Arthur C. Clarke, I won’t believe it is an extraterrestrial UFO until I see its Mars license plate.

The ETs either aren’t here or are the stupidest ETs in the galaxy. I prefer the former.
And, to trot out my favorite book on the subject again, if you are sure there must be something to all the sightings and close encounters, get “The Great Airship Mystery,” which tells how airships were seen throughout the US in the 1890s. They were seen by multiple respectable people, and some even claimed to have talked to the pilot, who was from New England. Since no such airship existed, we must conclude that people see lots of things that aren’t there.

17

I’m with the consensus. There’s no reason life couldn’t arise on other planets, but the sheer amount of space between stars is not plausibly traversable within any kind of reasonable time period. There is certainly no evidence that they’ve ever been to earth.

18

Although I flat out don’t believe in other paranormal phenomena, UFOs are one of those things that I just can’t dismiss as delusions or hoaxes (most sightings yes, but not all).

Unlike ghosts, UFOs in the OPs sense seem to me much more plausible than spirits from beyond. At least you can say “well maybe interplanetary travel is possible but we just haven’t discovered the means or theory behind it.” UFOs don’t violate everything we know about the physical universe. You can’t say that about ghosts and psychics.

I’ve seen some pretty weird things I couldn’t explain. But not enough to make me say “Yes, I think UFOs are aliens from another planet”. So I’m on the fence on this one.

19

I’m also of the opinion that’s it’s a near-certainty that aliens exist somewhere, but find it highly unlikely that UFOs have anything to do with them. Although as said even that’s more plausible than ghosts or souls or gods, since UFOs being piloted by aliens doesn’t actually violate any physical laws, or even require new ones.

Not at all. There’s a variety of ways they could get here without exceeding lightspeed. It would take a long time, but if they don’t care that wouldn’t matter.

20

An aside, but: One of the first lessons in skepticism I had was when I was about 13 or so I fell in love with the books of Erich von Däniken (Chariots of the Gods and others). For those not familiar, he’s a major proponent of ancient astronauts and in the 1970s and early 1980s he was huge (sold something like 50 million books).

To my credit, even as a gullible kid I thought some of his “findings” were really straining. Basically I didn’t think he gave the ancients nearly enough credit for imagination- the fact they had myths about people flying didn’t mean they’d seen it- they’d seen birds fly, they probably thought “damn, wish I could do that”- next thing you know someone says “wrote a myth about it…wanna hear it? Here it goes…”. Also I didn’t really see what was so spectacular about the pyramids- oh, they’re huge, I’ll give them that- but they’re just lots and lots of really big rocks.* But some of his factual claims were fascinating: an iron pillar in India that was thousands of years old and made of an alloy completely unknown that was resistant to rust, or that the description of the wheel in the book of Ezekiel was describing this, or that an African tribe worshiped a star that couldn’t be seen by the naked eye and yet they tracked its movements perfectly. Some of these things seemed like “what more proof do you need?”
My cousin gave my brother a bunch of his old Playboys about this time. I really did read them just for the articles (trust me on that one). One had an interview with EvD and I was stunned when he outright said that he was wrong about the mysterious alloy column- turns out it was rusty. And iron. Then Carl Sagan wrote an article for Parade or some other magazine about the Dogon people- the claims about that star they worshiped were grossly exaggerated, and re-reading the book of Ezekiel- nah-ah, this is way more of something you’d see in an acid trip than the stylized sleek spacecraft (and the ancients certainly would have known the difference in four angelic faces and four thrusters). There’s several more examples, but you get the jist- it was apparent to me by 15 or so that von Daniken was full of shit.

And yet I was thinking “Can 50 million readers really be wrong? If I’m 15 [or whatever] and realize this guy’s full of shit then why can’t they?”

“And what else will they believe?” It’d be interesting to know how many con-artists and skeptics can date their hoaxes or their “damn, people can be really stupid” phases to this old charlatan (who in addition to other oddities managed to really sell tens of millions of books and wind up broke and in debt- that must take talent).

Of course I moved on to believing in reincarnation about the same time, so I can’t claim it was a complete education. :slight_smile: (A large part of that was the “scientific” basis in hypnotic regression, plus my favorite cousin believed in it, and it is a romantic notion you must admit, though even when I still believed in it I noticed that people tended to most remember lives that occurred in historical times and places that had the most movies made about them.)

*My favorite comment was by an Egyptologist who was interviewed on The History Channel back when it was worth a damn and was asked his opinion of those who believe in the UFO connection of the pyramids: he’d apparently been asked this once too often and said, dripping with sarcasm, "Oh yeah, that’s exactly what I think… I believe that almost 5,000 years ago interstellar beings traveled thousands of light years to Earth, saw a group of people in a desert and said “let’s do something for them… should we tell them about DNA? Nah, too above their heads. Tell them it’s important to wash their hands? Or about natural antibiotics? Or how to sail into the wind? No… I got it! Let’s teach them how to move really huge rocks through the desert and pile them on top of one another! That’s something they can use and they’ll never figure it out on their own!”