I’m not sure whom you mean to be addressing here. I didn’t catch where Kaje or anyone else claimed that there are no negative physical effects of drug use. While I appreciate your concern for my kidneys, I just don’t see what ideas your post is meant to correct.
Your post has been effective in pointing out that everything introduced into the body is accompanied by some risk of detrimental effect. I can take that a step further to say that every action in life is accompanied by some risk of unintended consequences. In order to get out of bed each day, we have to make decisions as to which potential rewards will outweigh potential risks. The drug user is one who has decided that the reward of drug use outweighs the associated risks. The non-drug user is generally one who has decided the opposite. gatopescado,
Your assessment of the health risks associated with drug use is a very good reason for you to not take drugs. However, that assessment does not validate your criticism of those who make different decisions. That, I think, is what this thread is addressing.
I posit that your neighbor did not break into your house to support his drug habit. Rather, I suspect that he did it because he was poor and wanted to steal your stuff. It may well have been his intention to exchange your stuff for marijuana, but the reason that he needed your stuff in order to do that was because he was poor. It is highly unlikely that marijuana use was the sole cause of his poverty. I would guess that he had personality defects that would have prevented him from being a productive member of society with or without pot. A substantial personality defect is required for anyone to become a housebreaker. Housebreakers are bad people, regardless of how they live their lives otherwise. The same cannot be said of drug users.
O.K., I don’t want to turn this into a drug legalization issue, it is the pit after all. But there were a couple things I want to respond to:
Do you seriously not see the huge difference between getting more in tune with your body, mind, and spirit; and ingesting dangerous drugs? Are you high? (Scratch that question, it’s rhetorical).
Maybe your rant should specifically exclude addictive drugs then. P.S. Although LSD is not as physically addictive, there is a fair amount of psychological addition associated with it’s use.
Same measure I use for other judgments. I think less of you because of your drug use because I think it’s bad, wrong, and stupid. Are there good people who do drugs. Sure. Are there bad people who have never even seen a joint. Sure. But, all things being equal between two people, I will think less of one who uses drugs than one who doesn’t.
Beagle
Cite? Whacked out means what?
DarkWriter:
Why not? If there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, why not do it in front of your children?
As I said earlier, of course not. I just like/respect/care
about a DarkWriter who doesn’t use drugs more than one who does.
I think less of people who vote Republican because I think it is bad, wrong and stupid. However, I do not advocate the hunting, imprisonment and potential execution of those who vote Republican.
I love to hijack (threads), not this time. All I mean is any psychoactive chemical is a drug. Ergo, “whacked out” could be from cuban coffee, beer, LSD, pot, or too many carbs. Illegality is an arbitrary distinction. Alcohol is, by far, one of the most harmful substances around. OD, always possible in one sitting. Long term health consequences, too many to list. Often leads to violent behavior. (Why do I always type words with an “ior” as “iour,” and have to go back and correct them, is that an argument for a past life as an English person?–DAMMIT!, [/HIJACK])
So, Hamlet–if that is your real name–I simply contend drugs are drugs. Cite? Not really necessary until you show that one of the substances I named is not a psychoactive chemical. If you think I am saying depressed people should not take Prozac, wrongo! The converse is what I am saying, people on Prozac should not begrudge the rasta his splif. Basically, people alter their brain chemistry, always have, always will. (Devout Mormons and some other faiths may come close to avoiding this “rule,” problem is, heavy praying or meditation alters brain chemistry also.) Some people think they don’t experiment with drugs, but then go load up on chocolate and coffee.
I was just trying to clear the plate a bit… some of the philosophical issues (choices) were getting crowded, if you catch my drift.
I can present yet another POV here, which is again a bit analytic in approach. There are drugs. Some are illegal. And there are various reasons for this. What it can come down to is this: over-the-counter drugs are considered very safe, if used as directed. prescription drugs are either unproven or have an associated higher risk with their usage. illegal drugs are either drugs that were once used and are too dangerous to use anymore, or are drugs that never had any real medical purpose in the first place - and they all do “bad” things.
There are people who will argue on end that marijuana is harmless. They will quote sources. They will rant and rave. They are also dead wrong. Marijuana can, and probably will, fuck you up. It also is considered a “transitional” drug, meaning that its use can eventually lead to the abuse of “harder” drugs. Now, I said “can”, not “will”, just so no one goes apeshit over that comment.
Opiates… well… they do a great job at stopping pain and getting you constipated, but the physical addiction is undeniable, and they will fuck up your brain and liver in short order. Oh, fucks up your heart, too.
Now, I could go on and on with this shit. I won’t There’s no point in doing so.
If someone has taken it upon themselves to abuse drugs to no end, fuck 'em. Stick their ass in a hole and bury 'em now. It’ll save me from having to do it later. If they are that stupid as to make such an uneducated and irrational choice, it is of no consequence to me, so long as they keep their altered mental state the hell out of my way.
I have no sympathy. I’ve seen too many people fuck their lives up by “choice” to feel any other way. But the second some whacked out, high-ass loser causes harm to my family or friends, they better as hell hope that they died in whatever mess they caused.
So, I guess in conclusion - all drug abusers should lock themselves in their basements as not to harm anyone else with their stupidity.
[sub]how’s that for a transition from calm and rational to raving lunatic rant?[/sub]
I feel the same way. In fact, I feel the same way when the words “whacked out” and “high-ass” are removed from the sentence. Those who violate me and mine are subject to my wrath regardless of their means and motives.
Most would love to, but there’s always some asshole who wants to make up lies and demonize the drug user. The guy who wants to sit at home and get high is subject to the army of law enforcement officials and self-aggrandizing politicians who want to drag him off his couch and parade him into prison as a trophy capture in the Glorious-and-Oh-So-Sensible War On Drugs. I really hope that your apathy votes, MFS. It’s all I want from you.
[sub][dig in passing]It was a delightful transition from calm to raving but I missed the switch from lunatic to rational.[/dig in passing] [/sub]
Okay tymp, I think it had something to do with it. The OP was likening meditation to change brain chemistry with using drugs to change brain chemistry. Meditation is used to make one see the world around themself clearly and be harmonious. I hardly think LSD will make someone see and perceieve things clearly. And yes, I think the self-control makes it different. The ability to change perception without introducing outside chemicals and just relaxing and reaching samadhi is much different than freebasing to relax.
Also, think of where the money from your drugs goes. The hammer you bought might have come from Afghanistan or Pakistan, two of the world’s leading opiate producers. You may be funding druglords, warmongers, mafiosos or other “Bad People”.
And yes, I am aware that strychnine in coke is very rare. But look at the other stuff that is used to cut it. Ajax, baby formula, baking soda, et al. Remember, drug dealers are in it for the profit, not making sure that you have pure speed. You want a look at purities? Look at all the different types of E. About 1/3 of all the X on the market doesn’t even have MDMA in it. It is DXM or meth. Again, people concerned more with profit than with your personal pleasure.
DARE failed on me. I came to my choices on my own, not because “drugs are bad, mmkay?”
I do not doubt that you came to your choices on your own, red_dragon60. Nor do I question the choices you have made.
I do bristle though when I see comments about strychnine/Ajax/baby powder in coke/LSD/dope because such comments are usually made by those who would propagate drug myths and irrational fears.
A point unexpanded upon in my previous post was that many communities of drug users know quite precisely where every dollar goes as a result of their knowledge of where every dose comes from.
The point you are trying to make with regards to meditation cannot be effectively debated because you lack knowledge of the drug experience. This is not a criticism of your experiences but a simple statement that it is pointless to introduce such elements into this discussion.
I’m going to tell you some things about myself, since I’m representative of the majority of drug users I know. Hopefully this will serve to clear up some misconceptions.
I am a recreational drug user. I smoke marijuana on the weekends only. I’ve rolled once, and I’m not interested in doing it again. I was introduced to marijuana three years ago, and I’ve smoked, on and off ever since. Not every day. During the semester I only smoke on the weekends. On Friday night I go to my buddy’s house and hang out with him and his girlfriend for a while. We smoke a little of his, I give him some cash, he hands me a dimebag, we smoke a little of mine. We hang out for a few hours, and then I go home. No dirty street corners. No thugs hiding in the alleys. I don’t even have to go to the city. It’s not dark or scary.
If I have off on Saturday, I meet up with a friend at a nearby resevoir. They close the inner roads from 10-5, so we usually get there at ten. We walk a two hour hike and smoke along the way. It’s KB (really excellent stuff) so we only need a little bit - three or four bowls tops. After that two hour hike, we walk for about an hour along the beach, then explore other trails we’re interested in. Usually we stay about four hours total and we never smoke after that first hike. Then we’ll drive to her house a few minutes away and smoke a little more, then chill out for a while - watch a movie, play Parcheesi, meet up with some other friends. Sometimes my brother and I smoke together at home, if my parents are gone. Sometimes we go to the resevoir.
If I work at all, I only smoke at night. My parents are almost always out, so I smoke after work on the back porch. Then I hang out at home.
Monday through Friday, I work nonstop and have classes, so I don’t touch the stuff. I know the difference between how I feel when I’m sober and when I’m high. Relating to ultress’s comments, I’m not on drugs all the time so I do know that they haven’t changed me.
Sometimes I just decide to take a break. From last October until last March I didn’t smoke at all. Sometimes in the summer I smoke four times a week.
I have a 3.8 GPA from UMBC and I’ve made the Dean’s List and recieved Academic Honors the whole time I’ve been there. The two B’s that brought down my GPA were in Chemistry and Shakespeare, so I’m not exactly surprised (I hate science and god knows Shakespeare is tough going). Despite my drug use, every test I’ve taken and every paper I’ve written this semester, I’ve gotten an A on. In my extremely difficult Brit Lit 304 class, I was one of 7 students to get an A on the mid-term and one of 3 to get an A on the paper. I just found out one of my papers (on the images of women in My Antonia) is being considered for the University Literary Journal. I’m currently applying for the English Honors program and should have no trouble getting in.
Have I lost any memory? I still know all the words to “We Didn’t Start the Fire” that I memorized in 11th grade for extra credit. I don’t forget things. I have no issues whatsoever with my memory. In fact, I have an eidetic memory, which is somewhat similar to a photographic memory. I had an IQ test in 12th grade and my IQ was 154. I bet if I took the test again, it would be the same. (If anyone wants to pay for it to find out, I’ll be glad to take it.)
Yes, I’m a poor college student. I only spend $10 a week on marijuana. It’s not a big deal at all.
Why do I smoke? Cause it makes me happy. It relieves my stress, relaxes me, makes me laugh. I drink maybe once a week (usually the Sunday after I get paid) if at all. I rarely drink coffee or coke. I smoke cigarettes. I can honestly say I am addicted to nicotine, but not marijuana. I can tell the difference. I never get headaches so I never use Ibuprofen or Aspirin; when I have PMS, I take Midol.
Whatever images you may have of drug-users, I am your standard pot smoker. Most of my friends, though their GPAs aren’t as high, are the same.
I don’t really care if anyone approves or not. It’s my decision, and no one is changing my mind. I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about drug users.
My problem is people who ride others for not using the stuff to relax. If I relax by playing Counterstrike or painting miniatures and not by lighting up a bowl, it’s my choice. I give you the ability to choose what you want, so I want you to give me the same.
Damn, Warhammer is pewter crack, I don’t have the cash for the other stuff!
And along those lines, why the hell are Christians always being discriminated against?
Sorry, but I’ve been somking pot for a long time, in a wide variety of company (including plenty of non-users), and I’ve never seen anybody take crap for saying no. The usual reaction is, “Great, more for us.” On the other hand, the government spends about 20 billion a year trying to harsh my buzz. So lets keep a little perspective about who’s getting the pointy end of the stick, here.
MFS: It wasn’t clear from your last post: do you differentiate between drug users and drug abusers?
Nightrabbit: You managed to get just about every myth, mis-conception, and outright lie about drug use into that one post. Nicely done.
mornea wrote: "I could never understand why people who don’t know how their body will react and don’t have a medically compelling reason to find out, would put something in their body that they know will drastically affect their brain chemistry and has the potential to do great harm to them. "
First, I make sure I know the potential effects, good and bad, before I take any drug, legal or not. Second, you’ve got less chance of having a fatal allergic reaction to a joint than you do to a peanut. Yes, any drug will have long term negative effects. So do cheeseburgers. Everything causes cancer. I’m going to die wether or not I do drugs, so I might as well enjoy myself before I go. And before you take that federally approved, perfectly safe perscription drug, I have one thing to say: thalidomide. I trust the grower I know in Humboldt county more than I trust my own government.
I’m not going on myths, I’m going on common sense.
First, how many people are buying drugs that came from people that they trust? What about where those people got it? Someone gives me an unwrapped twinkie that may or may not be from a reliable source, and I’ll throw it out. You see razor blades in apples that strangers give away and you don’t buy anything that has packaging torn. That’s just common sense. I don’t respect people with no common sense.
Secondly, you guys proved my point. “People are going to be stupid anyway, why not just let them have pot?” Great argument, guys. People are going to kill others anyway, why not just hand out guns and make it easier? And no, I don’t think there’s any logical way to control who smokes and then gets in a car and drives, or who starts tripping and does something they’ll later regret. I don’t mind people drinking if they don’t go overboard, and I don’t mind people doing drugs as long as THEY don’t go overboard. The problem is, you can’t just take drugs away from the irresponsible. It’s giving everyone access or giving no one access, and I’d rather have a few good people deprived than give some sort of substance to a lunatic who’s going to be dangerous EVEN WITH his best mind forward.
Yeah, I use tylenol, and sudafed when I have a cold. I also drink caffeinated beverages. And yeah, I’m sure people on sudafed drive and aren’t the most consciencous drivers. But at least those serve a medicinal purpose. Drugs don’t DO anything… you don’t take them for a reason and any behavior modification is the TARGET, not the SIDE EFFECT. It’s stupid not to see a difference between taking sudafed for a cold and dealing with feeling tired afterwards and taking drugs specifically because I want to… umm… “chill” or because I like “tripping.” We can’t stop people from abusing them. Therefore, I say no one should have them.
P.S. I know there’s other stuff on the market that people can abuse. I don’t like it, but you can’t stop it NOW. I’m all for KEEPING another potential item of abuse OFF THE FREE market.
What do you think of current drunk driving laws / preventative measures?
Also, I’m not going to try to say that all drugs are safe. But many, many people I know who smoke pot buy it from their own “guy” who they know who grows it. Please point out the risk factor in this case.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hamlet *
**O.K., I don’t want to turn this into a drug legalization issue, it is the pit after all. But there were a couple things I want to respond to:
DarkWriter:
**
Many reasons. And not because it’s wrong. I don’t smoke in my house at all, because it would cause problems between my husband and me. It’s just something I do very occasionally, when out with friends. Once every few months, at most.
Even if my husband didn’t mind me doing it, I still wouldn’t do it in my home. I don’t know if second-hand pot smoke is as harmful as second-hand cigarette smoke, but I wouldn’t subject my young children to it. My youngest was hospitalized when she was a week old for RSV, and could be at risk for asthma or similar ailments. There is no smoking of any kind allowed in my house.
My children are too young to even understand what pot is. When they are older, I won’t encourage them to do it, and maybe even discourage them (and only because I’d be worried they’d could get pot cut with something dangerous), but I also won’t freak out if they try it.
That should read “SOME people can’t…” Would it be fair if I said “you ALWAYS hear stories about black people stealing cars” and thereby conclude that all black people steal cars?
Of course it’s wrong to harm someone else, and it should not be allowed. I openly support the legalization of drugs, but would never suggest that somebody should be allowed to drive while under the influence of a drug that would impare their abilities.
As has been pointed out, very few people would make this claim. If drugs didn’t affect my state of mind, I wouldn’t do them. I assume you’re talking about changes that linger after the drug has worn off, however. Yes my philosophies and outlook on life have changed since I started using drugs, but there are two reason I can think of why this isn’t a problem:
Everything you do changes your outlook on life, you build up your general philosophy as you accumulate experiences. It just so happens that for me, some of those experiences which involved drugs were more profound than some of those that didn’t. That’s how I choose to build my point of view and nobody has the right to insist I do otherwise.
Usually different perspectives are charished. Looking at an event from one point of view all the time is never thought to be adequate, as a point of view carries with it certain ways of interpretting what is seen. As you’ve stated, drugs induce an altered state of mind. This offers, in many cases, an additional perspective. Your mind is NOT working the exact same way it did before, so now the same thing you observed and made conclusions about (often subconsciously) before are seen in a new light. You may notice something you didn’t before, or weigh various aspects of a situation different than you did before. Then after the experience is over, you have two different takes on something, and you can (in sobriety), pick out parts from each that make the most sense, and rebuild your philosophy. Somehow it’s argued that this is a bad thing?
Yeah so… we should make skydiving and downhill skiing illegal as well, make sure our children don’t become involved with people who participate in such activities, and hunt them down and them jail if they do.
The “moralistic” issues are the point. I’m not debating whether or not drugs can cause harm. Apparently to you its clear that the ONLY possible answer to this question is that nobody should be allowed to do drugs, therefore there is nothing to argue and everybody should just agree with you. However, as with all morals, people have different views. I personally was upset that people shared views that advocated that I be thrown in jail for seeing it differently than they.
I strongly believe that people should a) know what the fuck they’re talking about or shut up and b) give others the opportunity to harm themselves if they so choice, if only after explaining to them realistic (read: non-anectodal AND FACTUAL) reasons why THEY (non users) think it would be a bad idea. People should be allowed to commit suicide if they want to, but I’d still try to explain why I think there are better options.
Explain that difference, because I obviously don’t see it. Consciousness… the mind… it’s all chemicals and electricity. Certainly I have a much deeper respect for somebody who has the ability to manipulate the chemicals by their own volition. I also have a much deeper respect for somebody who can run 50 miles than somebody else that can only do it in a car. However they both get you to the same place. Is one an easier way out? You bet. For the purposes of the guy who’s driving, does this matter? Nope.
My rant involves drugs in general. I objected to the statement that implied all drugs lead to crippling (physically and monetarily) addiction. P.S. I personally couldn’t do LSD more than once a week if my life depended on it. Psychologically addictive? Assuming that term means an intense desire to do it again, it would be fair to say its possible but not always the case, and I would posit that those who become psychologically addicted to LSD were just as likely to get psychologically addicted to any number of legal activities… it just happens.
All things are never equal between two people. Therefore its impossible to say that given any two people, the drug user is always the bad guy. I think cross-country skiing is stupid. However whether a person cross-country skis or not does not even weigh into my apraisal of a person. I would say that it often helps to look for the good in people too.
That merely reflects an ignorance to the realities of the choices that go into using drugs.
One reason would be for the exact same reason that it’s a bad idea to blatantly lie to kids about drugs. It’s about choice. You shouldn’t be forcing your kids to think one thing or the other. By telling your kids that drugs are tools of satan from day one, you force them to agree with you BEFORE they’ve had any chance to weigh the issues and come to a sound conclusion. Similiarly, by smoking all the time around your kids, you encourage them to do it BEFORE they’ve had a chance to decide whether or not it’s a good idea for them, personally.
I highly suspect that such stories are rumors… It really wouldn’t be a good idea to kill off your clients. Are there crazies that might? Sure, but there are also crazies who spike tylenol in convenience stores. Let’s all be afraid of that! At the same time, I suspect if one is snorting cocaine, they aren’t worried about the damage that some baking powder might cause.
MDMA is quite the exception. As an exploding market, adulterated/cut products are far more common than for other substances, and for this reason testing kits are widely used and should be considered essential for anyone who chooses to use this substance. Personally I only go with the most trusted of sources (ie: friends that have already tested and tried said pills) for E.
Jesus…do you support prior restraint of the press as well? “They COULD print something they’re not supposed to…so let’s just take away that possiblity” Thankfully the supreme court has never been in favor of such a view.
an excellent question. I thought about that for a bit, and this is, I think, the way I feel (as there are obvious complexities that can influence such a feeling):
I do indeed differentiate between the two. The abusers I have absolutely no respect for - they made their choice and have fallen into its grips.
As for users, regular or “recreational”, well, I still have very little respect for them, but it is more of a feeling of disappointment. For one, it saddens me to think that people need various chemicals to make themselves feel better or whatever. This simply violates one of my personal philosophies, and although I admit that I cannot, nor will I, force my beliefs on anyone else, I still feel a certain amount of disappointment whenever I find out about people’s drug use. No matter how they rationalize it, I simply cannot understand how they think it somehow benefits them to do so.
In my experience, most people who smoke pot get it from friends who either grow it themselves or know the grower. There are usually very few links in the chain, as the more middle-men in the process, the more the price goes up, and the harder it is to sell. And, of course, poisoning your own product means fewer customers.
Honestly, I don’t spend my life in constant fear of being secretly poisoned. It’s not a thought that frequently crosses my mind. I don’t buy opened packages in the supermarket because it’s probably stale or spoiled, not because it’s probably posionous. If a stranger were passing out free food to random people, I’d probably pass, because that’s odd behavior. Drug dealers a providing a service for a fee, same as any other merchant, except for a much more drastic policy on shoplifting.
Incidentally, I don’t have much respect for common sense, which I’ve found is usually short hand for “I haven’t put much thought into this, and I don’t intend to.”
**
Using pot, or being under the influence of pot, does not equal stupid. Nor does my using pot cause any physical harm to anyone else, so lets dispense with the ludicrous gun metaphors, okay?
Or who drinks. Or who buys a gun. Or who drives a car. The way to counter irresponsible behavior is not to take away everybody’s responsibilities.
So you support banning alcohol, right? You know, the common recreational substance that has proven to be one of the most destructive drugs around, yet still is 100% legal? Better nobody be allowed to drink, rather than risk some asshole getting behind the wheel loaded, right?
You must have at least some idea about how unbelievably juvenile that attitude is, don’t you? By that logic, we should outlaw… well, I was going to make a list, but I quickly realized that it would include everything on the planet. Anything can be abused, absolutely anything. Here’s a link (courtesy of The Master) to a website for people addicted to chapstick. Should we ban that too?
**
I don’t usually do this, but that last sentence warrants it more than anything I’ve seen around here for a long, long time: :rolleyes: