So what's YOUR problem with drugs?

The BBQ Pit
81

The problem with this is, it does nothing to prevent the negative interaction. For example:-

But you don’t know until you take the drug whether you’re going to freak out or not. So there seem to me to be good grounds for restricting its supply; the possible negative consequences (to others) of you taking the drug outweigh the possible negative consequences (to you) of your being denied it.

Or go into the house of anyone who drinks. Or go anywhere where someone who drinks might throw up. In short, go and become a hermit. Nope, I don’t think I want to live like that.

The fact of the matter is that, like John Donne said, no man is an island. We are involved with each other, we have to find ways of coexisting. In an ideal world, this wouldn’t involve any restrictions on personal liberty. You don’t need me to tell you that this isn’t an ideal world.

Having seen someone have one, I disagree. (To be strictly fair: no, I didn’t check out his blood chemistry or his EEG at the time. But he was flat on his back, telling me the ceiling was turning into green neon, so I’m taking what seems to me to be the likeliest explanation.)

Now this, to me, is just reprehensible. Are you saying that it’s BETTER for me (in effect) to say “No, I’m not going to help you out, this is your problem, deal with it”, than it is to say “OK, I’ll help, but, look mate, you shouldn’t do this to yourself”? Sorry. I do not desert a friend just because they make a wrong decision. But I do think it’s right for me (and, by implication, for society as a whole) to point out the negative consequences of that decision.

You don’t like the current drug laws? Well, you live in a democracy, don’t you? Write to your Congressman, stand for public office on a legalization platform. If you get enough people behind you, you can change the law.

Of course, the downside of living in a democracy, it seems to me, is that, once you’ve let the majority decide the law, you have a moral obligation to respect that law. At the moment, you and I both live in democracies where the majority (through their duly elected representatives) have decided to make most drugs strongly illegal. And it would seem that they’ve heard the “ain’t nobody’s business if I do” argument, and are not impressed by it, so you have to find a stronger one.

(In which search you might have my qualified support. I do think that drug laws, both in the UK and in the States, could use a lot of relaxation. But I’m not in favour of total deregulation, for the reasons I’ve given.)

I’m not trying for a merit badge here… it just seemed that, in the context of this debate, I should state where I’m coming from. (Which is: not absolutely simon-pure, and not knee-jerk opposed to drug use, but they don’t form a significant part of my lifestyle.)

At the moment, they don’t have such a right. If you want to change the law so that they do, well, that’s your right. Prove to me that what they’re doing is harmless (certainly to other people, ideally to themselves as well) and you will have my support in that. (For whatever my support is worth - about 2p at the last count…)

I think we can agree on this one.

82

throatshot

Um…I’m not (and I’m pretty sure everyone else isn’t) complaining about people who don’t use drugs. I’m complaining about your elitist attitudes concerning drug users.

83

throatshot

Um…I’m not (and I’m pretty sure everyone else isn’t) complaining about people who don’t use drugs. I know many people who do not do drugs…gasp…some of them are even my friends. I’m complaining about your elitist attitudes concerning drug users.

84

throatshot

Um…I’m not (and I’m pretty sure everyone else isn’t) complaining about people who don’t use drugs. I know many people who do not do drugs…gasp…some of them are even my friends. I find a lot of happiness in the real world…perhaps you should check out my post on the Amused by Simple Things thread.

I will readily admit that I am complaining about your elitist attitudes concerning drug users.

85

Shouldn’t you change your name to nosebreather?

86

Asked ealier by adam yax, who is cracking me up today:

Does that get you high, man?

87

You got a nickel bag?

You can call me whatever you like, handsome.

88

To be fair… There are people who do this… However it tends to be the same crowd that looks down on somebody for getting good grades or listening to weird music.

I wish you wouldn’t see drugs so negatively. I wish you would just change your mind and agree that people can be just as productive/friendly/beneficial to society with drugs as without, and therefore the mere fact that somebody uses drugs should not affect your opinion of them. Does my wish bother you? Don’t YOU wish I didn’t think that? Now just think about how much more uncomfortable that might make you if somehow my desire for YOU to change perpetuated a system in which the life you choose to lead – while otherwise functioning quite nicely – could be deprived of opportunties and perhaps freedom (ie: jail). Sucks huh?

As for the comments by others regarding anti-depressants. I’ve no doubt they are overprescribed… but they basically saved me. I went from a depressed loner getting b’s and c’s and 8th grade to a very healthy social life and top of my class freshman year. I’d never done drugs… though my parents thought I did… they had me tested before I got diagnosed. Then I took my first drugs and although the effects were subtle, the change was drastic. Not that it matters to the world as a whole, but if I hadn’t been given drugs (and drugs that act neurologically much like ecstasy, no less) I would no doubt still be that depressed loner living at the bottom of the deep whole I was digging. Perhaps this is why when it came around to trying the other sort of drugs for the first time, I didn’t automatically think “these are definately bad and I will definately be a worse person if I use them”. And you know what? I’m a better person than I was. Revelations while high or what have you had given me a much greater propensity for tolerance of all sorts, general amicability, and heartfelt interest in the wellbeing of others.

You want to call prozac a crutch? well then fuck you. Depression is quite a common disorder (or whatever it should be called). It’s a psychological problem, yes, but that doesn’t mean if you try really hard you can just find the “happy/sad” toggle switch and get yourself out of it. Even if there was some way, why the hell would you require somebody to do this when they could just as easily reap the benefits of medical science. I don’t know how it worked for other people, but I got depressed, took the pills for a year, and stopped taking them. Is that a crutch? I’d say a better analogy is a ladder lowered into some deep inescapable well.

oh and another thing… I’ve noticed this a couple times in various threads but never remember to include it in my responses… KAJE = MALE. I dunno what it is, but somehow my nick is more androgenous than I would have intended. I’m not especially angered if somebody on an internet messageboard makes a mistake like this… but try not to in the future.

89

Maybe I’m saying something that’s already been said, maybe you’ve all heard this, I don’t care. My Internet connection is going shoddy right now and I want to get something off my chest:

Drugs, like most other things, are not bad in and of themselves. They are bad when people misuse them. And when that happens, the results can be horrible: Overdosing, irrational acts of violence, and long-term neglect and abuse, not only of the self, but of children and other dependents. Who has to clean up after all of this? The fine people in the Emergency Room. They get the mean drunk who just slammed into a light pole, the ODing heroin freak who has to be physically restrained, the PCP addict who is completely irrational and completely insensate to the pain of punching out a plate-glass window, and the acid head who is on a violently bad trip. These people get dumped on them, without insurance, without money, without family, without names. They have to treat people who are so crazy they want to kill the hospital staff. And violent patients are more than annoyances: IV drug users are at a huge risk for AIDS, Hepatitis C, HIV, and other fatal bloodborne pathogens. Couple that with the fact that a heroin addict in the process of ODing isn’t going to care about the health of those treating him and you have a walking, screaming health risk.

And the taxpayers have to pay for it all. Hospital trips are not free. Ever. And if the person does not have any money, and if nobody with money claims the person, tax-funded services pay for their treatment. I do not enjoy paying for the same crack addict to overdose twice in one night. And unless major changes happen, that is what will occur as long as the current laws are in place.

My solution is simple: Legalize everything, but don’t treat those who OD. Not even those who can pay out of pocket. Having the abusers kill themselves quickly rather than slowly should underscore the fact that no, you can’t abuse alcohol or heroin or crack and still be happy. And the people who aren’t reached by that message should be allowed to select themselves out of the population. Total freedom regarding drugs must equal total responsibility regarding drugs. You might not like the concept of addicts dying in the streets, I don’t like the concept of my friends getting AIDS and still having to pay for the care of the person who infected them.

90

I just wanted to say, as the originator of the thread under discussion, that I’m really enjoying this. Never thought that thread would go very far, but who could tell?

In any case, I dearly enjoy causing chaos. So carry on!

91

I was with you until the “even those who can pay”.

I’m all for full legalization and no more government programs for abusers. But would you care to expound on why, even if you can pay for it, you shouldn’t get treated? you lost me there.

92

Why should the rich have any more right to be dangerous than the street junkie?

93

That deserves more of a response than I just ripped out there, mouthbreather. Being rich does not protect you from getting a disease. Being rich does not prevent you from spreading a disease. And when the disease is AIDS, being rich cannot make up for spreading a disease. Financial reasons were only one prong of my argument. Health reasons were the other. Am I being clear?

94

Why shouldn’t they have a right to be a danger (to themselves, of course) ?

95

Yes, you’re being clear but I’m not certain youre addressing the point.

I agree that everyone has a responsibility to make sure they don’t spread any diseases to unknowing people, but the way you’re talking about AIDS… do you feel other groups of people whose behavior puts them at a high-risk for AIDS should be treated the same as IV drug users?

96

If they are only a danger to themselves, if they can overdose in the quiet of their own homes and not abuse anyone else in the process of killing themselves, I have no problem. But that does not happen. They get dumped on hospitals where they endanger staff, they abuse their families and friends, and they abuse random strangers, directly and through taxes. They are on the path of suicide already. Why prolong the inevitable at the expense of others?

97

That should read “But that does not always happen.”

98

Have you ever seen someone OD on heroin? I have. It isn’t a violent, “wild-animal” type scene you see in movies and TV. They fall asleep. They don’t wake up. Now, assuming they can pay for their own care, please tell me why this is a problem for them to goto the hospital? Now, I know in some cases, people whacked on PCP or possibly LSD/mushrooms could become violent, and in those cases, I may concede to some of your points. But the majority of people in need of life or death care are going to be groggy or passed out, and I don’t see how you can logically turn them away assuming they can pay their own tab.

Inevitable? No. Not at all. I can’t agree with your premise that it is inevitable, so I can’t begin to answer your question.

99

Wow, at risk for both HIV and AIDS? Drugs’re more dangerous than I thought!

100

Also, it’s worth noting that the typical “drug crazed” PCP / LSD / meth types you see are not really in need of any medical attention, per se.

In medical terms, much of the time they just need to sleep it off.