I also meant to add that I understand that you’re not defending the mother in this particular case. But my objection is broader than the particular case.
Ok, I’m sorry but that is gross.
I am a mom who has breastfed both of my children. The oldest weaned himself off the breast at 9 months, when he was only nursing at night. Yes I was still producing milk, but he was getting most of his nutrients from all the other stuff he was eating (we started on single-grain cereal at around 4 months, I think, and on from there). The youngest will be weaned off the breast at about 6 months, because Mommy will be gone for two weeks!
Personally, if I only nursed for a few minutes every two weeks, I would not be producing any milk at all. Mine dries up after only a few days of no nursing, a week at the most.
This mother’s tired justification about “they do it in Africa” (ok, that’s not what she said, but I think that’s what she meant) is both untrue and a cop-out. I don’t know what is going on there, but I think it’s wierd.
I do not agree with her son being removed from the home when he was 5 because he was nursing, but I also know a little about how the system works. They got a call about potential sexual abuse (mommy makes me suck her tits) and came in hard and fast. If there WAS abuse, that’s what we’d want them to do, right? But it was probably mishandled from there.
I used to babysit for a woman who was nursing her 5 year old daughter. I may have only been about 12, but even then I knew that something wasn’t right. The rumour at the time was that the 10 year old son also got a hit occasionally, but I never saw it.
And hedra said this- "So the fact that he’s nursing once every 10 days or so is actually a NORMAL pattern, indicating that he’s well on the way to not breastfeeding at all anymore. It isn’t like he’s going to continue once every 10 days for the rest of his life. "
Um, I’m not sure that a child of that advanced age is showing a normal breastfeeding pattern at all, and at this rate, I’m thinking he might very well be nursing sporadically for years to come, if the mother’s prior acts are taken into account!
If the kid needs comfort that badly, buy him a blankie. But get him off your tit, please.
CNN has an interesting article on this issue. http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/parenting/07/10/breast.fed.controversy.otsc/index.html
The most relevant part I think is, " Is there some age at which authorities say, you know what, you got to stop this, this isn’t good for the child, or it’s just too strange. And you know what, there isn’t an age. Let’s take a look at what two medical authorities say about when to wean your child. The first set of recommendations from the American Academy of Pediatrics. And what they say is, “It is recommended that breast-feeding continue for at least 12 months, and therefore, for as long as is mutually desired,” mutually between the child and the mother. Let’s take a look at what the World Health Organization has to say. They say simply breast-feed for up to two years or longer. So what the authorities are saying is let the mother and the child decide. "
And Hedra is right about a murderer’s weirdness being blamed on extended breastfeeding. In an article about Garrett Wilson (murderer of 1, possibly 2 of his own babies), the crime library article says “(His mother) became close to her son. Perhaps too close. “Why, my God, she breast-fed him until he was 4,”” (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/family/garrett_wilson/2.htm)
Hedra, yYou state that milk production isn’t an on/off thing, but (as I’m sure you’re aware), it’s dependent on hormones that don’t hang around forever. This child was away from his mother for two years, and presumably in this time she had no opportunity to feed him. Unless she spontaneously lactates, she won’t be producing breastmilk now, regardless of how often he feeds.
Most likely, the reason that none of these organisations specifiy an upper age limit is that they assume the breastfeeding will stop anyway before any limits need to be imposed.
IMHO, even if there is no underlying disorder, breastfeeding at this age is a problem on its own. Breasts are not purely there for making milk, they are sexual objects too, and at eight years old this boy must appreciate this. I cannot see how sucking at his mother’s breasts at this late age could not affect his sexual development.
BTW, I fed my daughter till she was about two; ‘normal’ to me is about four.
for those who quote the WHO/PEdiatrics lack of an ‘upper age limit’ as evidence that there isn’t one, let me challenge you to find anyone, anywhere who would say that a twenty two year old person nursing on their mommy was w/in reason. 32? 52? Hell, my son’s great grandma is still alive, so presumably, w/o an upper age limit, my 60+ year old former MIL could still be nursing on her mom.
There is no upper age limit given by these reknowned agencies, however, that doesn’t mean that no age limit should ever be imposed. After all, they also speak of “for the first 12 months” and “up to 2 or 3 years of age”.
is there anyone here willing to argue that children are not radically different cognitively, socially, physically etc at toddlerhood compared to an 8 year old?
While it’s easily conceivable to me that an occasional ‘slip’ into ‘little kid-dom’ is somewhat normal for most kids (wherein, for example, right after a major scare, or major negative event like a death in the family etc., they might crave sitting on your lap and being rocked to sleep even tho’ they hadn’t done that for years), this doesn’t even come close.
And, I wouldn’t put the onus on the child to cease this. Children (generally) want to please their parents. It’s up to Mommy to set limits on the child’s behavior.
Amen. If I could post coherently, that’s what I would say.
Someone should note that age is not a definative guage of child development. It is at best a moderately useful marker, but:
Child Age != Child Development
Child Development is the key issue, and varies pretty radically. This kid mentioned in the above linked article seems to me to be hangin’ out on the ragged upper limit of the bell curve, but hell, someone has to define the extremes.
Also, some people are substituting emotional reactions for medical fact. That’s a no-no.
While I agree that there is something off here, there is clearly some underlying psychological reason for both mother and child to have continued this nursing behavior. Is that a compelling reason (beyond the ook factor) to remove the child from her care entirely? I don’t think so. To compel psychological evaluation and possible treatment. Yes, definitely.
I am more concerned about the psychological damage that could be caused by taking this very attached child from his very attached mother than the damage that might be caused by allowing the nursing to continue as they work out whatever causes there may be for it with the help of a competent professional. In a world full of neglectful, abusive parents it scares me that we’re yanking kids out of homes because their parents are nurturing them “too much.”
Tranq, yes, of course age /= cognative development, however, I’d still say that there is an upper chronological age for breast feeding. I don’t care if the person involved is severely developmentally disabled, if they’re chronologically 37 years old, they shouldn’t be breast feeding.
And, given that in this specific example, the ‘feeding’ aspect is decidely not there, I would argue that even if the child involved is severely developmentally disabled, he’s chronologically 8, and shouldn’t be sucking at his mom’s breast.
ONe of the battles those w/developmental disabilities face is the tendancy for others to view them as ‘child like’, and treat them so (or so my friend who’s an advocate tells me). And, I know from both my friends in the field and folks on this board, even those severely developmentally disabled, one goal is ‘age appropriate behavior’, so for example, while many of us wouldn’t get too bent out of shape if our toddler removed his diaper in the back yard and ran around holding on to his penis, we would decidedly not appreciate that same behavior from the 18 year old, even if their cognative abilities were seriously diminished. And should this behavior be exhibited, one of the treatment plans likely to happen would be to assist the young man to cease and desist. Or, that’s what I learned from all my friends in the field.
Well, Wring, I think the difference in what we’re saying here is “What is the appropriate upper developmental level for a NORMAL child?” I still defy you to define that in years.
Now, where there is an extreme deviation from the norm in nursing, I would certainly agree that medical/developmental study be done to determine if this is simply a case of slow development, or a case of abnormal development.
In this specific case, I would think such a study would definately be appropriate.
Nope - even in a person w/severe developmental disabilities, they look to have ‘age appropriate’ behaviors.
and, again, in the instant case, it isn’t ‘breast -feeding’ technically, since there’s no nurishment being provided, it’s a child sucking on his mother’s nipple.
I’m suggesting that since the nurishment aspect is non existant (and specifically wouldn’t be necessary for any human of chronological 8 years), the rest of the equation comes down to the ‘comfort factor’ alluded to before and age appropriate behaviors.
Now, certainly the ‘sucking’ reflex is a strong one, and I recall when I gave up smoking that one of the things I was told was that I should attempt to replace that whole ‘suck’ fixation. So, I understand and accept that even as adults we like to suck stuff. However, one of the things we adults don’t generally suck is our mommies nipples. (other adult nipples perhaps, but that’s for another reason).
Additionally, (absent the club scene presently), one doesn’t generally find pacifiers acceptable post toddler hood. the pediatric view take on the general subject of ‘sucking’ for comfort (they suggest that after 6 months old, one should start restricting it to crib time only
and here they talk about the ‘comfort’ sucking behavior, suggesting that it should cease entirely by ages 4/5, that by 6 it can really be a problem (mentioning both peer issues as well as problems w/development of perm. teeth). (other cites I found suggested 2/3 years chronologically for this).
Thanks, Tranq. I realized on my way home that indeed, Wring and Zoff were (in addition to other thoughts) dealing with ‘how old’ in a more developmental sense, and I was dealing with ‘how old’ in a chronological sense, and I tend to assume that chronological age is a poor proxy for degree of social/emotional/psychological development.
And while yes, I think that we as a society do tend to mark an upper limit for appropriate behavior (in public, at least - hence limiting the pacifier to bed) even for people with abnormal development, I don’t think you can specifically define a particular age as being the functional limit of ‘too old to breastfeed OR comfort nurse’, simply because such judgements must be done on a case-by-case basis.
This is really my major point - that you cannot assign an upper age limit with any reliability or effectiveness, even if ‘in general’ we can say that, say, 18 is definitely too old… The closer you get to the REAL margin of when a child’s emotional/social/psychological development is truly at the turning point of what is okay and what is not, the more likely you’ll have kids who definitely fall on either side of that line.
Another point I think people are missing (on my position): Do I think there is such a thing as ‘too old/mature to breastfeed’? ABSOFREAKINLUTELY.
Do I think you can assign one age as a standard ‘too old’ for all kids? No. Certainly not by chronological age. By developmental age, probably (assuming you can measure it accurately), and perhaps that age constrained or moderated by chronological age (such as an 18-year-old with 2-yr-old emotional development - it may be traumatic for them to not nurse, but there are other issues at play there, too, including how likely the mother is to WANT to breastfeed at that point, and yes, aiming for age-appropriate behavior). And, IME, when a normal, healthy kid hits the developmental age when it is no longer appropriate to nurse, they stop on their own, with out without parental guidance. So, the question of the OP - how old is too old, as I think I said already, cannot be determined except on a case-by-case basis.
Wring, if you were referring to me when you suggested that people are using the lack of a medically specified limit as a statement that there is no limit at all - please go back and reread my points. I did not say that because the medical authorities do not specify an upper limit that there IS no upper limit. What I said was:
So, I think if you read that you’ll find that I didn’t figure an endless process, but one where a child’s normal development pattern causes them to choose to stop when it is no longer appropriate for them to continue. So, are we on the same page? I think in many ways, we agree - aside from our opinions of whether the strict definition of what is breastfeeding includes comfort nursing or if comfort nursing is a separate behavior. 
Not that it really matters, because indeed, comfort nursing is technically what a child is doing during the weaning process anyway, and what the child in the OP case is doing, too.
I also was assuming that this is a two-way street - the ‘mutual’ part of breastfeeding/comfort nursing is essential. I would not suggest that a mother who hates nursing a toddler (even though he seems to need it) should just grit her teeth and continue. I might suggest ways to wean with the least stress for all parties, but you have to include the idea that most women are simply not going to be comfortable with nursing at some point or age. But again, where that line falls is highly individual, and IME varies with not only the woman but with what child she’s nursing. It behooves a parent to support the child’s needs in concert with her own, just as it behooves a parent to help a child find other ways to self-comfort when the developmentally appropriate margin approaches. I know I certainly helped my son develop multiple ways of comforting himself (and he developed a few extra on his own - especially the ones that would be bad if I suggested…). But he still had a really strong preference for nursing. Granted, he was a lot younger, too.
Also, your cite on ending comfort sucking is talking about pacifiers. Yet there is evidence that for things like tooth development, duration of breastfeeding (presumably including comfort nursing) is directly related to proper tooth and jaw development (note that the studies don’t specify nursing durations of over a year - generally there isn’t enough data to support study at that point!). Pacifier use is not beneficial to tooth/jaw development. Therefore, I’m afraid that the advice to stop pacifier use for physical reasons at a specific age isn’t applicable to weaning from comfort sucking.
As for self-comforting activities, again, in general, kids stop these behaviors on their own when it is developmentally appropriate to do so - that is, as you noted, by 5 or 6 years of age. Whether the appropriate response to continuing to allow those behaviors is to cut off the behavior or respond to the underlying issue that triggered the behavior’s continuance is a real question - I suspect that other self-comforting behaviors will replace the targeted one unless the underlying problem is solved. Back to square one, then, on the ‘normal’ time to end comforting behaviors. Solve the underlying problem, and the comfort nursing will stop anyway. Fail to solve the problem, and you still have a problem, even if they aren’t comfort nursing anymore.
So, then, back to the main point - if a kid is still nursing at 6 or so, it is time to look for other issues contributing to that behavior. Please note that this was part of my original response(!). But given an analysis of those reasons, then an INDIVIDUAL decision as to when to stop nursing must be made. But it still has to be case by case, not generic one-size-fits-all. If this is actually done, I doubt any normal healthy child would ever make it to the ‘absolutely nobody thinks this is a good idea at this age’ age and still be ‘comfort sucking’. Weird parenting behavior aside (yes, kids will try to please their parents - but I’m not talking about weird parents!)
Queen AI - did you not notice that I don’t think that this case is a good one for ‘normal’? Though the child in question was away for 6 months, no? Not years. Still involved relactating (and yes, my mom did produce milk after years off - I suspect the degree of production/reaction is individual - some women, like myself, produce more than the supply/demand cycle and hormones would require, and some women lactate before they’ve even been pregnant).
So, once AGAIN, I reiterate, there’s something fishy with this case. But this case ASIDE, I don’t think it is possible to establish one specific age as the upper limit exactly, though certainly it would be possible to say that there functionally is one - but setting it high enough to have all normal kids fall under the margin would mean it would be set way too high for most kids, and setting it lower would mean some kids would fall outside the margin. Hence, the ‘as long as mutually desired’ clauses in the medical literature - because between a healthy mother and a healthy child, they WILL end nursing (and comfort sucking) at an appropriate time.
That’s another thing-if he was away for two years, no suckling or anything-then why start up again when she gets him back? Hmmm??? Okay, only away six months. Still, surely he would have been “weaned” in that time?
THAT is a scary thought.
I think this mother has some control issues. Serious ones. Like I said, I don’t think it’s even sexual. BUT…if this continues, it could become sexual-or at least, give the poor kid some very strange issues of his own to deal with.
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I understood that cites referred to pacifiers. However, since the issue here is ‘comfort sucking’ and not breast feeding, I feel it’s an appropriate notation. I also realize that much was made of the problems w/teeth etc. and noted same, however they also mentioned other issues.
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Breast feeding provides both nurishment and ‘comfort sucking’. In the case cited by the OP, the ‘nurishment’ factor is not present, hence, my refusal to call it breast feeding and my focus on the comfort sucking.
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The cites I brought in seem to suggest that by toddlerhood at least (and at worst case scenario, by age 5/6), the child should not be using ‘sucking’ as a source of comfort, and should develop other coping strategies.
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I don’t agree that we ‘cannot’ achieve an upper age barrier. Understanding that each child does develop differently, certainly by the time the child is in a public school setting for the full day, they should have developed other coping strategies for stress (other than the suck reflex). The cites suggested an upper age range of 5/6 chronological years, and I think that’s appropriate. Yes, also for the child that’s severly developmentally disabled. You see, even if the child is needing that ‘sucking for comfort’, there is no reason why the object to be sucked should be a human nipple attached to mom. Suckers, straws, etc. are possibles, and if the child is needing the physical contact w/mom, too, sitting on the lap or nearby is appropriate for age 8.
But - sucking on a human nipple for ‘comfort’ is not age appropriate for an 8 year old. Or a 7 year old. Marginally for a 6 or 5.or 4 year old, Perfectly fine for 2, 3. and under. (and yes, as long as mom doesn’t object)
By the way, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence from the OP that the child involved in this case is in any way disabled.
I’ve not commented on the whole ‘is this sufficient cause to yank the kid out of the home?’. I think it’s sufficient cause to investigate mom to see if she’s in some way hampering her childs emotional and social development. If the evidence is there that she is, then interventions should occur, up to and including removal of the child (but not necessarily so).
They actually make products for developmentally delayed kids to help them cope with their continued need to suck/mouth/bite things so they don’t need to rely on less appropriate (for school) objects, such as pacifiers and bottles. Like these for example http://www.equipmentshop.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProductID=128 The idea is that, though they are delayed, they should be encouraged to act as age appropriately as they can.
Christ!!
Guaranteed this is some wacky midwest wacko with a serious “momma cow” complex.
hedraThe child was away for 2 years and 2 months, not 6 months. But I can’t get the article to open again in order to quote it.
But, as wring pointed out, there is no indication that this child is not relatively normal and healthy. So yes, he must have made it past the age where nobody thinks this is a good idea.
Just as long as we don’t start seeing them in any new
Got Milk? commercials, I’ll be fine.
Wring, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree. I do understand your point (re: stopping at a specific age regardless of developmental level), I just don’t agree with it. I would also certainly support the idea that kids with developmental delays should be moved over to other sucking devices at an appropriate time, but I do not think we can determine the time effectively on an absolute scale. I also think that with two completely normal parties (mother and child) the question is moot - they’ll never reach that hard upper limit. As for the mother’s breast being both a sexual object and a non-sexual object (either for feeding or comfort sucking - for sake of your definition counting this as ‘during the time when feeding is also happening’) - mothers have no problem switching the meaning at need, I suspect that children do the same thing if necessary.
And QueenAI, once AGAIN, I reiterate - this case has something else going on, beyond the ‘what age is okay’ thing, and I am NOT defending this situation - there is certainly something whacked here. Note that I mentioned the whole ‘nursing is a two way street’ concept… if there isn’t anything wrong with the child, perhaps there is something wrong with the mother (which I think I made clear was my concern - that she had him nurse for the camera - and that compounded by the whole relactating/starting nursing again after he was away for that long - heck, for 6 months was marginal though I know kids who went back to nursing after weaning for a pregnancy, so it isn’t unheard of - but if indeed it was 2 years, then … well, we know who is the one with the issue, don’t we?). So, can you please go back and read my responses, and HEAR that I am NOT defending this particular case???
I am not disagreeing with the ‘this particular situation is disturbing and needs further investigation’, I’m disagreeing with the idea that you can set an appropriate, effective, and meaningful absolute limit. Where I would set the hypothetical and not-all-that-useful absolute limit is probably only slightly above where Wring sets it (but I haven’t done enough research to be willing to specify an age exactly anyway, so I won’t), but at that age (even at ‘under 8’ per Wring), that limit is ineffective (not to mention potentially damaging) because children who reach that age and are still nursing or comfort sucking will already have been pushed past their own NORMAL limits. Individual assessment is the only way to set an effective upper limit, IMHO - and unfortunately, even Wring’s well-stated position on that is not (so far) changing my position that the idea of a specific limit is problematic.
However, to work with Wring’s position for a moment - If you want to set a normal age for this, why not use the ‘natural age of weaning’ information gathered by Dr. Dettwyler? She does appear to have done her research. In which case, Wring would be happy, because the high end of the physiological norm (for healthy normal kids/parents) as determined by the good doctor is 7.2 years, with the VAST majority weaning by 4 years when allowed to ‘nurse as long as they want’. The margin above that is TINY. And again, (note once again that I agree with this point) if a child is still using self-comforting sucking at age 6 or older, you need to examine the situation for what else is going on, because something may well BE going on!
When you step outside the developmental norm, though, I continue to disagree (and this is where we will have to give up on the debate because I don’t think either of us is likely to change our minds on this point): I still think that while one would aim for ‘age appropriate’ when developmental problems occur, it often is a slow process and does not happen the same way twice, so I still think that setting one limit for all children is not possible. I can’t even agree to setting a target age because of that age being much too HIGH for most kids. If the ‘problem’ is determined to be on the parent’s side, I’d be more prone to go for the physiological norm as a guideline (but again, you might be way too late if you just use that line).
Sorry to continue to disagree with you, wring. This has been a very interesting debate, and if people who have a lot more background in this than I do (medical/psychological) eventually decide to set an upper limit, I will remember your arguments supporting that concept. I may then concede the point … though I doubt I’ll agree with it even then - I’ve got this whole ‘situational’ basis to my thinking that makes me very uncomfortable with absolutes - if you set them where they are truly absolute, they are ineffective or meaningless, if you set them where they are meaningful, they aren’t absolute.
Feel free to scream in frustration, since I think we’re arguing from philosophical bases that don’t mesh.
And LOL! Mr. Wilson! :eek: At that point, I’ll know the Milk Council has lost it.