Well then, in those cases it’s not a Godwinization and those folks are wacky. But groups aren’t fungible, and not all feminists are evil fascist bitches like those you’ve refrenced. And beyond one or two posters in this thread who’ve gotten my dander up, I don’t think even the word ‘bigot’ could apply, let alone ‘nazi’
Well… that rhetoric (from what you’ve said) is disgusting, sexist, and bigoted, but not genocidal. Nil on the Nazis.
Just MHO, but you should probably save that for feministis who have Nazi-esque positions. Mere sexism doesn’t cut it in my book.
Sorry, didn’t mean to read anything into it. It’s just that I can’t think of what else could be done that isn’t already being done. Since so many people here seem to have strong opinions that things need to be changed, I guess I assumed they had an opinion as to what these changes would be. I apologize for directing the remark towards you. I guess we’re both asking the same question.
Would be nice, wouldn’t it? But I don’t think anyone is seriously proposing it’s possible. Reducing the number of rapes, however, must be doable in some way or other.
But that does make me wonder about one thing – Is there now, or has there ever been, a completely rape-free society? In all the discussion of society vs. genetics, and answer to that might shed some light.
Hm… so we’re back to listing different types of rapes. I hate doing that, but it’s probably better than jumbling them all together. And, I’m sure if(when) I miss any, someone will fill in the blanks.
Acquaintance rape- in which the victim knows the rapist. Accounts for most rapes (between 68 & 73 percent) and includes spouses, ex spouses, friends, co workers, fellow students, etc.
Date rape- fairly recent development in which the rapist asks out, drugs, and rapes the victim. I didn’t throw that whole frat party/drunk girl scenario in here. I put that in acquaintance rape.
Serial rape
A distinct possibility. But I for one am not willing to throw in the towel yet.
I remember getting in to a debate (read: flame war) about this subject years ago on a different message board. The impetus for the discussion was a couple of researchers digging into the subject, then publishing their findings in a book aimed at laypersons. IIRC, much of the vitriol in that discussion – and out in Meat World – was that such a book would set the woman’s movement back 100 years. “That book is just going to place blame on the victims” was a common battle cry, as well as just about every other argument we’ve seen in this thread.
But it was the hope of many of us that the research would yield some useful data. Does anybody know of this book, and did it ever get published?
I’m inclined to agree. But I think it’s possible to reduce the number of rapes in the largest category (acquaintance rape). I believe a lot of it is apathy; people just do not want to talk about the subject. It’s difficult (as we’ve already seen), it’s painful, and there’s no small amount of defensiveness on all sides.
One of the things that needs to happen, IMO, is that victims need to start coming forward. In all the papers and websites I’ve read, and in dealing with victims, one thing is always glaring: rape is underreported. Charges cannot be brought if it isn’t reported, cases cannot be tried, and it’s not a deterrent to someone if they get away with it clean the first 3 times. This is the only part where victim responsibility comes in.If you are raped, you have GOT to report it.
Even saying that feminists dismiss Solanas is probably giving her a higher status than she actually has. Women’s studies departments don’t waste their time “decrying” her because she’s not considered important enough to mention in the first place.
Her name may come up in an art history class as the woman who tried to kill Andy Warhol, but other than that she’s largely forgotten.
That isn’t entirely true. My girlfriend completed a WS degree at the U of Oregon, and the SCUM Manifesto was required reading in at least one of her classes. Of course, Eugene, OR is more radical even than most other college towns.
I think that it applies to those who say such things, and those who are representative of large feminist organizations who allow their stages and forums to be used to say such things. Silence on the matter as someone scowls that men should make up no more than 5% of the population is just as bad, because it allows the hatred to continue.
Again, imagine the response of the Reader if someone on here started posting that because of some belief that a specific racial or gender group was inherently evil, but also somewhat necessary, they should be kept in tightly controlled camps and not be allowed to account for more than 5% of the population. They’d disavow that person, and make it clear that the Reader doesn’t tolerate or support such vileness. They would not remain in a silent endorsement of that kind of bullshit, nor allow anyone to think that it could be spread here with the knowledge of the Reader.
But that’s exactly what Ms. Magazine did in allowing members to post those hateful and digsusting things; it gave them the silent endorsement that it was acceptable to express such views. Ms. is supposed to be a mainstream feminist source that doesn’t support or encourage batshit insanity, but when presented with the opportunity to prove that or turn a blind eye toward it deliberately and allow that kind of hate to be broadcast on their dime, they let it go on.
If I let David Duke use my stage to spread his message, I am no better than David Duke is, especially when I have a choice to do the opposite.
How else would they manage to make sure that men make up no more than 5% of the population and stay inside their little camps but to kill them or just not allow any more male children to be born?
In other words, it may be that there is some level of bad shit that is going to happen and can’t be stopped. Everybody wants to make sure that it doesn’t happen to them, because it’s not pleasant to think that the bad shit could happen to you (general).
But how? So far we’ve had a suggestion that men not be allowed to travel in groups and that they should have curfews to keep them away from places where they could rape women. This has been dismissed as unfairly infringing on the rights of billions of innocents.
What other suggestions are there?
Part and parcel with that is to avoid false accusations. We have to treat this as we would any other crime, however, and investigate accusations aggressively in order to determine the facts of the matter at hand. Because of the nature of the criminal justice system in this country, we can’t automatically assume that every person who alleges to be the victim of a crime actually is, nor can we assume that every suspect is actually guilty. Those who falsely accuse should be punished, so as to discourage it. This would be a benefit to both men and women, because it would cut down on the number of men falsely branded a rapist, and it would allow the police to spend more time investigating actual cases of rape.
For everybody who just can’t get past the word ‘feminazi’, I’ll try to replace that word with ‘feminasty’ for bigots like Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon from now on.
But you could have said that ten posts ago, instead of screaming “feminazi” every time someone failed to read your mind. Hint: If people don’t understand what you’re getting at, it’s up to you to restate your position in a way they can understand.
Well I tried to say it ten posts before that and a bunch of people didn’t get what all the fuss was about and started with the ‘men just feel guilty when they’re demonized like that because they’re afraid they could be rapists.’
Anyway, that’s what I think. There’s a better, less inflammatory way to say that the majority of rape is committed by men than ‘Men are rapists.’
Now, everybody’s agreed that less rape is good, so does anybody have any idea how to accomplish that?
If I were called on such a blatant act of hypocracy, I guess I’d be pretty eager to “move on” without addressing the issue too. It must be a lot easier than admitting that you engage in exactly the same kind behavior you’ve spent so much time denouncing.