So, which part of my life do I give up to avoid being raped?

[tdn]

I’m wondering if the whole “feminazi” topic could be taken to a new thread. Enough of polluting this one.

Anyhoo…

@Maureen

Hm… so we’re back to listing different types of rapes. I hate doing that, but it’s probably better than jumbling them all together. And, I’m sure if(when) I miss any, someone will fill in the blanks.

Acquaintance rape- in which the victim knows the rapist. Accounts for most rapes (between 68 & 73 percent) and includes spouses, ex spouses, friends, co workers, fellow students, etc.
Date rape- fairly recent development in which the rapist asks out, drugs, and rapes the victim. I didn’t throw that whole frat party/drunk girl scenario in here. I put that in acquaintance rape.
Serial rape

I think starting with three is enough, yes?

Three is probably plenty to start a meaningful discussion, but I suspect there are several more. And I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of them. For example, I would think that spouse and fellow student are worlds apart (unless the fellow student is also a roommate).

But for now let’s see if we can solve just one narrow category: Date rape involving slipping the victim a “mickey.” I’m not really sure how this is done, whether it’s done in private while on a date, or in a party-like situation. Seems like if it’s done in private, it would be exceedingly easy to prove. Question about the drug – Rhopinol? Is it illegal in all circumstances to obtain?

[Bricker]

@Ellis Dee

While not written very clearly, this cite is asserting that 46% of reported rapes result in conviction, which seems very much in line with the Alaska cite. I’m starting to feel much more comfortable with the 40s% number than the 2% number. If somebody were to assert that 40% of reported rapes resulted in conviction, I would accept that as reasonable. Possibly a little low, but close enough for government work.

Here is a general outline of the steps in a criminal prosecution:

[ul]
[li]Report of crime to the police[/li][li]Police investigation ends in identification of suspect(s)[/li][li]Police recomend filing of charges to prosecutor[/li][li]Prosecutor accepts or modifies police recommendation[/li][li]Prosecutor requests indictment[/li][li]Grand jury returns indictment[/li][li]Suspect is tried[/li][li]Suspect is convicted -OR-[/li][li]Suspect pleads to lesser charge[/li][/ul]

Where you put the starting and ending measurement points has a great deal to do with statistics. Some rapes are never reported to police. Some reported rapes do not result in the police identifying a suspect. Of those that do, some do not result in sufficient evidence for the police to forward the case to the prosecutor. Of those, some are not strong enough for the prosecutor to proceed. Of those remaining, some plead to a lesser charge, and some are acquitted.

[catsix]

FinnAgain said:
And, you’re a moronic misandristic bitch.

Yeah, she is. Isn’t she the one that believes it’s perfectly acceptable to implement a curfew for all men and to revoke their right to free association by saying that they cannot travel in groups?

Neither of you include a link to your cites.

In that case, here is a Link for you with a convenient bar graph showing the conviction rates for murder, rape, robbery and aggravated assault. This is the National Center for State Courts data. The graphs are for 1998, and show the conviction rates and incarceration rates for these violent crimes.

Lamia said:
One of her major examples is Valerie Solanas, who I believe appears in the dictionary under “Lone Wacko”. Another is her unsupported account about what someone once said on another message board (a message board that, as best as I can tell, no longer even exists).

And I’ve already said that because feminazi is too inflammatory for certain feminists who believe that men are inherently flawed and (margin as an example) have espoused the view that men should have curfews and restrictions placed upon their associations with other men, I will use the term ‘feminasty’ to describe them. These include the followers of Andrea Dworkin, Catharine MacKinnon, Germaine Greer, and posters like margin.

tdn said:
Date rape involving slipping the victim a “mickey.” I’m not really sure how this is done, whether it’s done in private while on a date, or in a party-like situation. Seems like if it’s done in private, it would be exceedingly easy to prove. Question about the drug – Rhopinol? Is it illegal in all circumstances to obtain?

I’ve never seen any scietific evidence as to how common this practice actually is, and I am pretty sure that there are people who take Rohypnol and GHB for ‘recreational use’ themselves, so not all use of these drugs is for ‘date rape.’

[Syntropy]

@Ellis Dee

Regarding the question of dubious percentages, I tried to do some digging to find some cites. Most hits seemed pretty biased to me; certainly not worthy of linking as an actual cite.

As a general rule, if the word “women” was in the domain name, the figure was quoted between 2% and 2.5% of reported rapes led to convictions. If the word “men” was in the domain name, the number was quoted as roughly 1 in 6, or around 17%. That’s quite a disparity.

I did find this one cite that seems reputable, if not woefully out of date. It appears that the good folks of Alaska saw their conviction rate of reported rapes hover in the 40s during the years between 1986 and 1991. 1988 had the highest conviction rate, at 48%, but then began a downward spiral, ending at 40% in 1991, which is the last year covered by the cite. I suppose it could have gotten as low as 2% by now, but the cynic in me isn’t buying it.

There is also quite the debate raging regarding false reports. One fact I found interesting is that the “men” sites and “women” sites both seem to agree that the conviction rate is approximately equal to the false reporting rate. That strikes me as an odd correlation, though clearly there is no causal link between the coincidence. Just a numerical oddity. But where women’s sites claim 2% conviction and 2% false reporting, men’s sites claim 17% convictions and 15% false reporting. At odds with all this is the Alaska cite. Could we really have fallen this far since the eighties, or is Alaska simply a more enlightened locale?

Hey, just found another reputable-looking cite.While not written very clearly, this cite is asserting that 46% of reported rapes result in conviction, which seems very much in line with the Alaska cite. I’m starting to feel much more comfortable with the 40s% number than the 2% number. If somebody were to assert that 40% of reported rapes resulted in conviction, I would accept that as reasonable. Possibly a little low, but close enough for government work.

I found this thread an interesting read. In my opinion, the proper response to somebody who says that “Men are rapists” would be “Rapists get convicted and sent to prison.”

Thanks for the cite. You’re right, it is interesting, and I’m wondering where the disparity comes from as well.
I wouldn’t say Alaska is more enlightened, but it certainly throws some light on just how much bias there is in rape reporting as a whole. I’m starting to wonder if there are any objective numbers out there at all.

[catsix]

How about that link to the National Center for State Courts?

I believe their numbers came from the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report and are national statistics for 1998.

Did you look at that link?

[Lamia]

@tdn

I’m wondering if the whole “feminazi” topic could be taken to a new thread. Enough of polluting this one.

I’ve already made my point as best as I am able to, and don’t feel the need to discuss the matter any more either here or in a new thread. I’m happy to let the subject drop.

Now, about date rape involving drugs –

But for now let’s see if we can solve just one narrow category: Date rape involving slipping the victim a “mickey.” I’m not really sure how this is done, whether it’s done in private while on a date, or in a party-like situation. Seems like if it’s done in private, it would be exceedingly easy to prove. Question about the drug – Rhopinol? Is it illegal in all circumstances to obtain?

*Whether in private or at a party, the issue of proof only comes up if the victim realizes what has happened and presses charges. There are likely a lot of victims of this form of date rape who wake up and think they must have just gotten drunk, blacked out, and at some point in the time period they don’t remember consented to have sex. Even if the victim suspects what really happened, she may be hesitant to come forward for fear of being accused of being a cheap drunken slut, or for fear that she might be wrong and would wind up putting an innocent man through a rape trial.

I would assume that there is some sort of drug test that would reveal the presence of roofies in the victim’s system, but I don’t know how soon this test would need to be performed in order to turn up useful evidence.

Most cases of this form of rape that I’ve heard of took place in a party situation, so aside from stricter laws in regard to the drug itself I think peer pressure could have an effect. Women have already been warned to be careful with their drinks and to look out for their friends. (When I was in college, one girl escaped being raped in this way thanks to a vigilant friend.) It might be beneficial for everyone, and especially young men, to do their part to encourage the idea that doping someone’s drink so you can perform sex acts on their unconscious body is a repulsive crime. I think far too many people are willing to wink at this one as a “less bad” form of rape, or put the focus on how the victim should have been more careful about what she was drinking.

Although it might be considered “less bad” because it’s usually less violent, I think this kind of rape is “more bad” in that victims may be left in the position of not knowing or not being sure that they’ve been raped at all. This makes it difficult to get justice, or even basic post-rape medical attention.

[Syntropy]

@tdn

Three is probably plenty to start a meaningful discussion, but I suspect there are several more. And I’m not sure I agree with your assessment of them. For example, I would think that spouse and fellow student are worlds apart (unless the fellow student is also a roommate).

But for now let’s see if we can solve just one narrow category: Date rape involving slipping the victim a “mickey.” I’m not really sure how this is done, whether it’s done in private while on a date, or in a party-like situation. Seems like if it’s done in private, it would be exceedingly easy to prove. Question about the drug – Rhopinol? Is it illegal in all circumstances to obtain?

Rohypnol is illegal in the US. We don’t make it, we don’t sell it. But it is legal in Mexico and Europe, and the wonder that is the internet makes it easier to obtain, I’m sure. It’s a benzodiazaprine (valium on steroids, basically), which is very easily dissolved, and is prescribed mostly for sleep disorders.

[catsix]

Lamia said:
I think far too many people are willing to wink at this one as a “less bad” form of rape, or put the focus on how the victim should have been more careful about what she was drinking.

Maybe it would help if the law could more easily distinguish between someone who had actually been drugged and someone who just got extremely drunk and made a poor decision.

Do they test blood for evidence of Rohypnol and GHB as a routine? Because if not, they probably should.

There are likely a lot of victims of this form of date rape who wake up and think they must have just gotten drunk, blacked out, and at some point in the time period they don’t remember consented to have sex.

I think we need to find out exactly how often the ‘slipped a mickey’ rapes happen if we’re going to come up with effective strategys to deal with them.

Maureen said:
Rohypnol is illegal in the US. We don’t make it, we don’t sell it. But it is legal in Mexico and Europe, and the wonder that is the internet makes it easier to obtain, I’m sure. It’s a benzodiazaprine (valium on steroids, basically), which is very easily dissolved, and is prescribed mostly for sleep disorders.

Rohypnol is also not the only drug that can be used for this. It’s the one that most people are aware of, but there are others out there that can be used to ‘slip a mickey.’ We need to identify what drugs, where they’re coming from, and how often this is happening.

Also I wonder if it is safer to go to a bar where liquor, beer bottles, and other things are kept behind the counter until poured by a bartender.

[Siege]

One thing I’ve pointed out a few times is that there are subcultures in which women don’t have to constantly watch their drinks because, to use an old-fashioned phrase, taking advantage of someone that way is unthinkable. For example, would you seriously advise me to watch my drink constantly at an Episcopalian choir party? My church’s choir has about 50 people, of which a fair number are single men. Most people drink wine at these parties and no one thinks anything of it. While I’m not saying it’s impossible to be raped at a church gathering, it’s highly unlikely, and I doubt anyone would say I had it coming because I left my drink unattended.

Here’s another example. A few years ago, I went to Pennsic, the SCA’s equivalent of a national convention. Not only did I go to a party at which both men and women were drinking, I accepted a drink of home-made booze which someone handed me asking if I wanted to “drink from Rachel’s jugs”. Rachel was the brewster, and it was good stuff. Later that evening, a gentleman I know walked me back to my camp since I wasn’t quite sure I was sober enough to find it on my own. Now SCAdians, unlike Episcopalians, do tend to be armed, but that can’t be the only reason I never felt like I was in the slightest danger of being raped.

I’ve read that we can’t change attitudes. I don’t buy that. I have seen with my own eyes atmospheres in which, while sex may be available and readily so, it is only available if all participants are willing and “No” is taken for an answer. Hell, I’d be willing to bet I’d be reasonably safe at a Pittsburgh Geek Night, an event which tends to be mostly male. I know the few times I have made it to one, I haven’t been watching my back every moment because of what I know of the men who go to them.

While catsix and I will continue to disagree about the nature of feminists, I do wholeheartedly agree with her that the advice we give women which amounts to “treat all men as potential rapists” is sexist and does a disservice to men. Don’t trust a man alone with my drink? Don’t trust myself to walk home alone? Don’t trust a man to walk me home along? Nonsense! Yes, there are untrustworthy men out there and I’ve known my share of them. Nevertheless, one of the reasons I became a feminist is because I *like * the company of men and I refuse to give up that pleasure just because a few of them decide to act like louts!

CJ

[Syntropy]

@catsix

Do they test blood for evidence of Rohypnol and GHB as a routine? Because if not, they probably should.

When a disoriented patient presents to the emergency room, it’s fairly SOP to test for drugs and alcohol.

I think we need to find out exactly how often the ‘slipped a mickey’ rapes happen if we’re going to come up with effective strategys to deal with them.

I don’t have numbers, but I would venture to say that it’s an extremely low percentage. Just the flashiest, as it’s what’s making the news at this point.

Rohypnol is also not the only drug that can be used for this. It’s the one that most people are aware of, but there are others out there that can be used to ‘slip a mickey.’ We need to identify what drugs, where they’re coming from, and how often this is happening.

This is true, til recently it was Ecstasy and Ketamine.

[tdn]

@Maureen

Rohypnol is illegal in the US. We don’t make it, we don’t sell it.

I was going to say “Just make it illegal, then no one can ever get it.” Yeah. Like marijuana. I think my brain is in Friday Mode.

Peer pressure among women to look out for each other is a great idea, and would go a long way towards preventing rape and securing convictions. Peer pressure among men to look out for women, rather than each other, would be even more effective.

The difficult thing about that is that men have a natural tendancy to get into tribal buddy mode, and often consider betraying a male friend to be worse than any crime, no matter how heinous. (I’m sure that women do this to some extent too.)

I think that leads us back to education – men have to be taught that if a friend engages in date rape, he is no friend. The right thing to do is not stand by said “friend.” This is a tough one, as nearly every guy would be extremely reluctant to do so, if for no other reason than it will get him labelled “traitor” by other men. One thing that might make it more palatable is that if most men are made to realize the grave seriousness of the crime. I think that most men don’t, for reasons I’ve stated in a previous post.

Once again, education seems to be the answer here. At least it’s the best I can come up with on short notice.

[tdn]

CJ, that was an interesting post.

What you said, in short, was that there are some social situations that are inherently safer than others. They either are more conducive to men behaving, or attract fewer men that don’t behave.

In your opinion, what are the elements of those situations that set them apart from others? My own uninformed guesses: One you mentioned was Christian. Another was for, and pardon me for saying this, geeks. (I can say that because I’m proud to be a geek myself.) Alcohol was served at one, but presumably not at the other. Both had some sort of built-in directed purpose, as opposed to a “show me a good time” atmosphere.

What else?

[EllisDee]

@Bricker

Here is a general outline of the steps in a criminal prosecution:

[ul]
[li]Report of crime to the police[/li][li]Police investigation ends in identification of suspect(s)[/li][li]Police recomend filing of charges to prosecutor[/li][li]Prosecutor accepts or modifies police recommendation[/li][li]Prosecutor requests indictment[/li][li]Grand jury returns indictment[/li][li]Suspect is tried[/li][li]Suspect is convicted -OR-[/li][li]Suspect pleads to lesser charge[/li][/ul]

Where you put the starting and ending measurement points has a great deal to do with statistics. Some rapes are never reported to police. Some reported rapes do not result in the police identifying a suspect. Of those that do, some do not result in sufficient evidence for the police to forward the case to the prosecutor. Of those, some are not strong enough for the prosecutor to proceed. Of those remaining, some plead to a lesser charge, and some are acquitted.

Yes, I am aware of all that. According to both cites I posted, and the even more compelling cite that catsix posted, the rate of conviction in rape cases is 46%. So either the 2% figure has a margin of error of ±44%, or it includes unreported rapes as the pool of all cases, or (as is my suspicion) it is merely a disengenuous attempt to further an agenda.

[blowero]

The other 44% are people who make U-Turns without basing the right-of-way on how many lanes they cross.

[Testy]

@tdn

<SNIP>

The difficult thing about that is that men have a natural tendancy to get into** tribal buddy mode**, and often consider betraying a male friend to be worse than any crime, no matter how heinous. (I’m sure that women do this to some extent too.)
<SNIP>

*Bolding mine.

I do not believe that men have a tendancy to go into “tribal buddy mode” with some fucking loser that has to dope drinks to get laid. Maybe we just hang out with very different sets of people but nobody I know would ever admit to doing anything like this. Frankly, someone caught doping drinks at a party would be in serious danger of assault, his glands would be the last thing he needed to worry about.

Regards

Testy

[Rilchiam]

Well, I’m glad to hear that.

But, leaving drugging incidents out of it, is it true or is it not that men will sometimes ignore a woman’s cries for help, figuring that “she doesn’t really mean it” or “I don’t want to get involved”?

Note: I am not asserting that that does happen; I’m just asking if it ever does. Although…When I was a sophomore in college, my roommate was raped at a drunken party. I encouraged her to press charges and naturally word got around, resulting in one of the partygoers trying to “reason” with me that “She could ruin these guys’ lives!” and “You have to ask yourself what she was doing at that party in the first place”. I’m inclined to call that “tribal buddy mode”.

[FinnAgain]

@Rilchiam

But, leaving drugging incidents out of it, is it true or is it not that men will sometimes ignore a woman’s cries for help, figuring that “she doesn’t really mean it” or “I don’t want to get involved”?

Yeah, and I’m sure some folks are still ashamed.

@Rilchiam

Note: I am not asserting that that does happen; I’m just asking if it ever does.

I am sure, however, that you could find virtually any crime that people will see and not risk their own neck, up to and including murder.

[Bricker]

@Rilchiam

Well, I’m glad to hear that.

But, leaving drugging incidents out of it, is it true or is it not that men will sometimes ignore a woman’s cries for help, figuring that “she doesn’t really mean it” or “I don’t want to get involved”?

Sometimes The Bad Guys Win

[Typo_Negative]

@FinnAgain

Yeah, and I’m sure some folks are still ashamed.

I am sure, however, that you could find virtually any crime that people will see and not risk their own neck, up to and including murder.

Did you read the info in that link? I don’t think it proves your point.

Anyways, I always assumed much about that story, that your link says is wrong:

Because of the layout of the complex and the fact that each attack took place in a different location as Genovese attempted to flee her attacker, it would have been physically impossible for a witness to have seen the entire attack. Most only heard portions of the incident without realizing its seriousness, a few saw only small portions of the initial assault, and no witnesses directly saw the final rape and attack in an exterior hallway which resulted in Genovese’s death.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

Assume for a second that humans were asexual creatures. Everybody has a penis (or lacks one), and we reproduce by forehead-parthenogenesis. But some of us were big and others were small. (Or “strong” and “weak,” or “carried weapons” and “didn’t carry weapons,” or “smart” and “dumb.”) Generally, things are fine, but there’s a tiny fraction of the big, strong, weapon-toting, smart guys with penises who, because their brains are wired wrong or because they were raised by morons (we have no idea what makes this fraction behave this way) need to terrorize the small, weak, weaponless, dumb guys with penises. Every so often, a big (etc.) guy will make a small (etc.) guy do something that’s extremely humiliating–let’s say, forces him to hold his breath until he passes out–and scary, if only because if the small guy refuses, he’s going to get a beating, or worse (because the big guy has those weapons.) If the big guy gets caught, he’s going to jail but most of these incidents don’t result in the big guy getting caught. So these things tend to go on, however hard we try to fix the problem by studying what makes brains get wired wrong or what makes morons miseducate their kids.
Now that we’ve eliminated sex from the equation, what would you tell the small guys to do? To start carrying weapons? The answer might be “I’m no good with weapons” or “Weapons scare me” or “Because I’m dumb, sometimes I can be tricked into surrendering my weapon.” Whatever safeguards you introduce, you’re still going to have some of these terrorizing, humiliating encounters between the deviant bullies and the defenseless victims. Does it seems appropriate to you to fill these victims with rage by proposing the incarceration of everyone above a certain height, or proposing that the entire Large population undergo lifelong re-education classes for things they haven’t been educated to do in the first place? It seems to me to make more sense, while we try to learn why these bullies deviate from the vast majority of peaceloving Large guys, to encourage the Small population to keep themselves safe by a variety of means–walking in groups, locking their doors, avoiding dark alleys, etc.–that won’t always be effective.

Some of these Small guys will resent that they can’t enjoy as many solo, unlocked-door, dark-alley pleasures as most Large guys can, and they are just filled with rage because their frustrated advocates are telling them that they could enjoy these things if only every single Large guy were behind bars, or restricted by curfew, or attending lifelong re-education classes, but that doesn’t make it so, and certainly doesn’t make an individual Small person any safer.

My point, which I may not have made well here, is that very little of this issue has to do with sex, other than to divide us into two groups, each with a ferocious agenda. One group is saying “Your civil liberties take a back seat to my safety” and the other says “Your safety takes a back seat to my civil liberties.” But if you remove yourself from the equation and see this as a gender-neutral problem, as above, whose position tends to change, and whose remains the same?

What do we say to victims of any crime? “I’m sorry. This shouldn’t have happened to you. We will try to punish the person who did this, after a fair trial. In the mean time, would you mind if we make some suggestions how you might modify YOUR blameless behavior to increase your own personal safety?” Why this a plain-sense attitude to take with every crime victim, other than victims of rape?