Two words, love:
Chastity Belt!
After reading this load of horseshit I couldn’t help but notice that your location is “you’re own little world”.
I have two teenage daughters who would either laugh at you or kick your ass for saying such stupidity. They have been raised to believe that passiveness and agressiveness both have their uses.
I also have a post-teenage son who would have been thrilled to live in your “curfewless” world.
And against all my efforts all three have somehow come to understand that “no” means “just whine some more and maybe you’ll get what you want”.
Ah, those damn 16 y/o girls are just so damned cute! He probably couldn’t help himself (see Pit thread re: Prisoner, you are an idiot). <that was sarcasm, folks>
IMO, there IS something wrong about the ways in which we socialize boys (there is also something wrong with the way we socialize girls). Is the primary factor in rape? No. But it is there.
And (as I have said in 3 threads now), we as a society need to change our approach to rape/victims and also how we educate our youth. The attitude that “she deserved it; she was wearing/doing/being/at the party” did not come along one day–it is fostered and condoned throughout a guy’s life. Add alcohol/drug of choice to the mix and disaster ensues. Often you don’t even have to add alcohol.
Should women take common sense precautions against crime? Of course, as should anyone.
The point here is how draconian do those precautions have to be? The point was very well made by the OP-kudos to her. I challenge the assumption that it is up to ME to don armor, carry a weapon, restrict my life (don’t go out after dark etc) in ways that would seem absurd if they weren’t so damn sexist, so that predators, aka, men can continue to delude themselves that their attitude of power and entitlement should reign.
Are all men rapists or potential rapists? NO. But since rapists are not covered in scales, how are we to tell? That is the crux of all of this anger–women HAVE to suspect all men–we never know when or where the next rape will occur…
It’s so ingrained, that I think it is not seen by many. Come, live my life, share my POV and concerns, as I send a teenage daughter out into life–walk with her in the parking garage at the mall, the empty terrace at the country club, the shadowed hallway of the movie theater, the rear stacks of the uni library----I could keep naming places, but I think you get the idea. Why is walking alone an invitation for rape? Why not put us in burkas–to eliminate all possiblity–oh, but burka’ed women are raped too! Why not just marginalize us and keep us at home–there, that’s better! Don’t want those Temptresses walking around, since we men cannot control a simple biological impulse/have exaggerated fears of women/need to dominate someone, anyone b/c we are pathetic wastes of space.
The men here are offended by being painted with this brush? So be it. Women live with this burden every day–in all aspects of their lives. You can take every precaution in the book and still be raped.
I am offended by having my self devastated, my freedoms curtailed, my integrity questioned if I do report a rape.
Really? Then why is that one in five college-aged women has had nonconsensual sexual intercourse? (1995 National College Health Risk Behavior Survey)
A “miniscule” risk should not strike one out of ten people.
Althought women are more likely to be raped by someone they know and it is more likely to happen in a residence, women are educated to fear the parking lot and being alone. Rape awareness training too often emphasizes not struggling so that he won’t kill you and making sure to take along a man you can trust. Since you are more likely to be raped by an acquaintance and not struggling is often taken as consent, this training seems more like rape victim training to me. Ms. and other feminist sources have been saying to fight back for at least ten years and I am still seeing main steam articles saying don’t struggle.
eleanorigby, do you really want to get involved in another thread about this? I know I don’t, and so I… ah shit, too late. Anyway…
I don’t really think that boys are ever explicitly taught that it’s OK to rape. That’s like saying Harris and Klebold did the Columbine thing because “no one ever taught them the difference between right and wrong.” That’s bullshit. Pathological behavior is rarely a case of parents instructing kids in the finer points of pathological behavior.
The above paragraph largely applies to “back alley” rape. When it comes to things like date rape, I agree that explicit instruction needs to be given to boys about “no means no”, “consent can be withdrawn at any time”, and things like that. In this instance education is worth its weight in gold.
I’m not sure I agree with that. I don’t think that such ideas are spread through society like some sort of disease, rather that such thoughts probably arise organically in men’s (and women’s) minds regardless of social influence. Denial probably plays a huge part in that, as well as the thought that “Next time, I might be the one accused.”
That’s not a hugely developed theory on my part, but there feels like there is some truth to it. I welcome the input of other guys on this.
The cure for sexism is not more sexism.
If you read what I wrote, you’d find that it’s clear from context that the risk I’m refering to is assault rape from a stranger, the proverbial slimy predator that lurks in the shadow and jumps a woman as she’s fumbling for her car keys.
I suggest you read this, because the simple fact is that if a woman will get raped (and the rate is declining), chances are overwhelming that she knows the guy. That doesn’t make the rape better or less horrible, it’s just that I, as a 43 year old white male, run a far greater risk at being subjected to a violent crime by an unknown perp, that any woman of being raped in an alley by a total stranger. News stories, images from movies and tv make women afraid to go out for being raped, make them lock their doors and windows and live in gated communities, for fear that someone will climb in and rape them while they’re sleeping, while all facts, across many countries, show that violence towards women, be it rape or abuse, is predominatly done by men they know, and willingly invite to their homes, are married to, are working with, are going to school with.
It’s an emotional and loaded subject, but considering the purpose of this board, I think it’s important to try to understand where the real dangers are when it comes to rape.
As an aside - it’s never the woman’s fault, but it sure is human nature to try to put the blame somewhere else when we’re in trouble. The prisons are full of people who’re, if not regarding themselves as innocents, at least see themselves as victims: “It’s society, my dad beat me, I never had a chance growing up in that part of town, she led me on.” People in general are very reluctant to admit to themselves that they brought on their own downfall or failure. That goes for rapists as well.
I think we could avoid the sexism brouhaha by pointing out that what goes for rape goes for all violent crime. If I wander in a dark alley and get mugged and beaten up, the moral responsibility falls 100% on the mugger. But if my friends ask me “What the hell were you doing in a dark alley at two in the morning?” they’d have a point. I’ll go in a dark alley if I have to, but I try and minimize my risks. Striking a balance between safety and freedom is always tricky. It’s not something where there are a set of simple, clearly defined rules, but rather an area where situational judgement and common sense are the most important factors.
I realize this post mostly applies to stranger rape, not date rape.
This fire needs some gasoline, don’t it? So I’ll ask a question I’ve been thinking about since Friday:
Are the changes in education we’re talking about here compatible with “abstinence-only” sex ed?
I really don’t know, but I suspect they’re not. Thoughts?
Daniel
The questionnaire for that study asked participants if they had been forced to have sexual intercourse.
My question: “Have sex with me or I’ll break up with you.”
Should a women who has sex in response to that demand answer ‘yes?’
Let’s not forget the people that constantly have Bad Shit happen to them.
People who do not learn from their own mistakes or other people’s life lessons and Do The Stupid Thing That Everyone Told Them Was Dumbass To Do and then when it Gets All Fucked Up Exactly Like It Everyone Said, they whine and complain, but never learn.
I have just done a heroic measure by self editing a non relating rant of mine that came out of nowhere and I will start my own thread to exocise it out of my system.
Cite for anyone saying it’s the woman’s responsibility if she’s raped? Did somebody actually say that?
I’ve had it seriously suggested that I need to stop being femme and/or out at all, if I want to not get gay-bashed.
That’s obviously ludicrous, but what really burns my biscuits is if people are willing to suggest that, it must be because they believe that that’s so.
There are some risks that can sensibly be curtailed, and there are some risks that it is downright offensive to suggest they be curtailed. What they have in common is that some people will suggest that women need to do both in order to avoid rape, and mutatis mutandis, that queer people need to do both in order to avoid being bashed.
What it ends up being is, “Do not live your life as normal. Do not do many things that, coincidentally, sexists/homophobes would prefer you didn’t anyways (wear sexy clothes, not have a man around for protection, be gender-deviant, be out). And then maybe, possibly, you could be rewarded by not suffering a hideous assault.”
See the Pitting of prisoner666554433221, around pages 6-7, when it is discovered that we can’t even agree on a common definition of “responsibility.”
To avoid being attacked and or raped I tend to avoid going to dangerous places alone without a weapon of some sort. I avoid getting smashed at castro bars whilst wearing tight white tennis shorts. I make sure that everywhere I go I have several available ways of getting back home. If I need to rely on walking or running from one place to another I wear sensible shoes. If an area seems dangerous I move away from that area, pop into a well lit shop, quickly call a taxi, avoid crowds of dangerous looking people. Also, because in interested me, I studied a martial art for several years, and know something about avoiding getting hit, and hurting someone if the need arrises.
Of course this doesn’t insure my safety, but the sacrifice of giving up these few things is not so great and I don’t live in fear.
I don’t think anyone should give up anything to avoid being a victim of crime. Instead if your life involves going to dangerous bars and getting hammered then walking home alone, you should give up those things because it’s SENSIBLE to do so.
[semi-hijack]
I know quite a few people in occupational safety circles who would argue that the employer has a responsibility to have secure routes to vehicles if they are going to employ people for late-night shifts. None of them think that such a responsibility on the part of the employer makes the criminal any less responsible for being the one who committed the crime.
[/semi-hijack]
I think that several of the responses in this thread are spot on.
I believe that a kind way of saying it is this: the woman is not responsible. However, we live in what is often a big, bad world. Some people say things like, “Why didn’t she lock her doors” to blame the victim. They are assholes.
However, some people say things like, “Why didn’t she lock her doors,” to try to impart information to someone else (like a daughter) that might prevent the same thing from happening again. No, my neighbor should not have had their house broken into, but they constantly leave their garage door open, and until all of the bad people in the world disappear, I won’t be telling my kids that burglars shouldn’t exists, I’ll be telling them to close the damn garage door. It would be easier if I didn’t have to (seriously, the garage door opener is broken and when I leave for work in the morning, I have to get out of the car, go into the house, and manually close the door), and I should not have to close it if I don’t want to, much like a woman should be able to get drunk at a party with no trusted ride home. Yet I close the garage door.
You are spot on. I have heard it said of a woman who was where the speaker thought she should not be or doing something the speaker thought she ought not to be doing, “She is going to get herself raped if she keeps that up.”
linkety-link?
I don’t recall seeing you address, in this or any of the other similarly themed threads now active…
Two weeks ago I was in a foreign country, and won big at the casino. I cashed out my chips and stood there at the casino cashier’s window counting out my winnings. My wife growled at me, “Do that discreetly, or you’re going to get yourself mugged outside.”
In what way are the two sentiments different?