Agree. Unfortunately, there’s very little evidence that the Arab mentality has changed since then.
Again and again they’ve been offered a state; again and again they reject one.
Actually I think it’s useful because all of these groups are in basic agreement that (1) there should not be a Jewish State in the area; and (2) undermining that Jewish State is more important than having an additional Arab state.
Further, the evidence suggests that Abbas is in accord with this basic worldview.
If all he wants is statehood, land, and rights for “his people”, then why not announce to the world that his side is ready to accept the most recent offer that was made? The pressure on Israel to honor its earlier offer would be immense. He could sweeten the deal further by agreeing that “Palestine” would offer citizenship to any Palestinian Arab anywhere.
They knew they were moving to Palestine when they moved there. Their gamble was that their military protection from Israel in the occupied foreign territories would endure for the years they planned to take advantage of lower housing costs outside of Israel. So they could move into the actual “homeland”, or back to New Jersey, whatever. And why should anyone else feel sorry for them?
Israel will never withdraw its occupying forces from a foreign country? You call that something the rest of the world should “deal with”? Is that assertion intended to draw any support for your particular brand of jingoism, or was it just a way to say “Fuck you, rest of the world and whatever you think”? Israel isn’t a big enough country to last on its own and can’t afford to take such an irresponsible attitude, friend.
How about trying to make an argument *without *the special pleading, with some actual intent to attract support? You’re better than this, aren’t you?
Israel will never stop protecting its citizens. That’s what I’m trying to say. It may force some of them back to Israel, but it won’t abandon them. That isn’t jingoism, and I’m not trying to convince you. I’m just stating facts.
Leaving Jews to die would be a betrayal of everything Israel stands for. If we do that, then we have no right to call ourselves a country.
The citizens you refer to chose to live in a foreign country. They have no right to expect military protection there, any more than any other expats do in any other country. The lebensraum argument gets no traction in the modern world. “Leaving Jews to die”, you say? They can fucking well move back to New Jersey, as I already pointed out. Their presence in these manufactured settlements is not a fucking given of historical fact. :rolleyes:
The single greatest obstacle to peace in the region is the number of Israelis with an unwarranted sense of exceptionalism and entitlement, as your posts exemplify. Why should anyone else cater to, or even respect, that? What the hell makes *you *so damn special that allows you to demand support against the people you’ve been oppressing for decades?
You’ve stated your opinion. That’s nice. I’m glad matters are so clear to you. I wish you could accept that other people perceive things in a completely different way.And no, don’t just say “But I’m right and you’re wrong”. Your truths are *not *self-evident.
I’ve stated the opinion of the vast majority of Israelis. If you want something to change, you have to start convincing us.
But they won’t. No matter how often you say it.
(Not to mention the fact that the majority of settlers were born there, and have no prior home to go back to.)
Look, I’m not pro-settler. I think the whole settlement enterprise was a huge mistake, and I would be perfectly happy if they all left voluntarily. And frankly, on a personal level, I don’t like settlers that much. *Especially *the ones from New Jersey.
But that doesn’t change the fact that they’re there, they’re not going to leave, and my government isn’t going to cut them off. No amount of self-righteousness is going to change that.
Isn’t Israel already cutting them of? I thought that was the backhanded intent of the West Bank Barrier, from the Settler talk of “facts on the ground” a few years back.
Do you feel it would have been proper for Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, when they gained their independence from the Soviet Union, to expel the ethnic Russians living there who’d been illegally settled by Stalin?
Similarly, if the Tibetans are ever lucky enough to gain independence, should they be allowed to expel the Han Chinese “settlers” living there.
Regarding Alessan’s point. The Israeli POV, that they won’t simply abandon their settlers is hardly unique.
When the various Baltic countries became independent from the Soviet Union(which had treated them vastly worse than the Jews ever treated the Palestinians) one of the more controversial issues was how to deal with the ethnic Russians and it was made clear that if the ethnic Russians were in any way mistreated or had reason to fear persecution, the Russian government wouldn’t think twice about reinvading.
Perhaps, we can see some sort of reconciliation between the Jews and the Palestinians of those territories, but I find such an idea preposterous and I haven’t met anyone who’s actually been there and is familiar with the people who finds such a reconciliation anything but laughable.
They’re not the Afrikaners and the South African Blacks.
Brazil84 is currently spewing forth the Israeli talking points about Abbas needing to recognize Israel as “a Jewish state”, but he seems to be ignoring the fact that such demands are new.
Egypt was never required to recognize Israel as “a Jewish state” nor was Jordan required to recognize Israel as “a Jewish state.”
Demanding the Palestinians recognize Israel as “a Jewish state” is more than a little like demanding South African Blacks recognize the Transvaal and the Orange Free State as “Boerstaats”(Afrikaner states).
Of course they wouldn’t do that any more than the Navajo would agree to recognize the US as the Sovereign state of White Europeans.
I’m actually not very educated on the Israel situation, so this is an honest question:
Are the settlers expecting to be under the authority of Israel if and when the Palestinians get a state?
It seems like if Tibet had independence, having a group of ethnic Han Chinese living there is different than having a group of people who are still citizens of China.
No, considering that their own property rights there were as strong as the ethnic majority’s, and that they considered it home. The ethnic Russians did have to make the choice of continuing to live in a country in which they were ethnic minorities, or moving somewhere where they weren’t - and that’s the choice that Jews who chose to live in Palestine rather than Israel would have to make as well. What, do you think there was a point you were making?
You state that they’re not going to leave as a fact. It certainly is not. If faced with living as ethnic minorities in a foreign land, or moving elsewhere, they’d have the same choice as Russians in the Baltics. Some might choose one, some the other. The ones who stay would have some issue with demonstrating legal title, however. If Israel wants to support them, as you say, they can build apartment complexes with all the mod cons inside their own fucking borders instead, hmm?
Your assertion that their presence is simple immutable fact is just another way of saying you refuse even to consider that their attitudes, and yours, might be a big part of the problem. That isn’t self-righteousness on my part, it’s narcissism on their part - and your own.
If virtually the entire world is telling you you’re wrong, the honest response is to consider the possibility.
No, as you can see from Alessan’s posts, they don’t expect Palestine ever to become a state, only to continue to be de facto, and maybe de jure someday, part of Israel itself. Otherwise they’d never have moved there from New Jersey.
In that you don’t seem to be recognizing the possibility that some might choose to stay, as residents of the nation of Palestine. And that you’re not addressing the issue of their squatting, not having legal title except that bestowed by the occupying power. That’s how.
The settlers’ attitude is part of the problem. I just don’t think it’s going to change.
You’re also ignoring the fact is that the Israeli government is not going to let them become part of a Palestinian state, and the fact that the majority of the Israeli public agrees with this. You might say that that too is an attitude problem. I disagree: I think it’s a side effect of what makes us the great nation we are (and no, I’m not being ironic here). I don’t think that’s going to change, either, nor do I want it to.
Here’s what I think might happen - and what I basically want to happen. The vast majority of the settlements, those near the Green line on the Israeli side of the fence, will be annexed to Israel. The “deep” ones will be evacuated by Israel - with force, but without violence. There might be some exchange of territory in return for the land annexed. It’ll be hard, it’ll require a lot of goodwill on both sides, and it’ll need the support of the Israeli public, but I think it can be done.
I’m sure that you find my solution horribly unjust. However, unlike the “solutions” you’ve proposed, it’s actually workable, which is the only thing that matters.
Israel leaves the settlements. Some settlers leave, many more stay behind as Palestinian citizens. They naturally retain their Israeli citizenships as well.
A week or a month or a year later, Palestinians show up in the settlement and demand that the Jews leave what is, of course, stolen land. The Jews refuse. An argument breaks out, someone - it doesn’t matter who - fires a shot, and the whole town is engulfed in violence. More and more Palestinians, both military and mobs of civilians, arrive at the site, and the settlers are quickly overwhelmed. Fueled by 45 years of oppression and hatred, Palestinians start taking vengeance.
Back in Israel, the Israeli public sees CNN footage of Israeli citizens being dragged out of their homes and shot. The Israeli public demands that their government do something. The government sends in an airborne division, guns blazing, to rescue the settlers. Now you have thousands of people dead, and a full-scale war. And I ask you this: is that a good “solution”?