Another approach might be to say “You’re individuals, actual humans with actual free will. Be aware that no expats in any foreign country have a right to expect anybody to to go war over them, and you don’t either. Also be aware that your legal right to continue to live there, under the foreign country’s laws or world standards, is dubious and probably unenforceable. So make your own decision what to do.” How’s that?
A-fucking-mazing. :rolleyes:
[quote=brazil84\And as long as the Arabs have such a mentality, handing them appeasements will not help the situation.[/quote]
As long as Israel’s mindset is that its neighbors are something “other”, something less than fully human as themselves, somebody who needs to be kept down, somebody with less rights as humans and as people with a homeland as themselves, then no, peace will not be possible. It is one of the deep tragedies of the human condition that Israel has chosen to simply reverse roles rather than *learn *from its people’s history.
As long as Israel refuses to recognize Palestine’s right to exist, as long as it gives no reason for anyone else to think it understands any language other than force, then it has no claim on any support from the world.
You forget the most familiar option of carrying on the status quo sans resolution. Eventually (for whatever reason) the status quo will be utterly and completely untenable to all sides, but until that day comes it will always be the default option.
You know, as an Israeli who is all for a two-state solution, and who regrets the establishment of the settlements, I used to think quite like you.
And then I grew up, and realized that you have to live with the “what is”, and not with “what you’d like it to be”.
Because, like Alessan said, many of the settlers will choose not to be evacuated, and to prepare for war instead. And the Israeli public simply will not just stand by as Israelis (even ones they fundamentally disagree with) are lynched.
Then any war they choose to start would be on their own heads, wouldn’t it?
It’s quite remarkable to think of an entire nation that does not believe in allowing individuals to make their own choices and to accept the known consequences of those choices. It’s even more remarkable to think of an entire nation that would feel an obligation to go kill other people to protect those said individuals from those consequences. And it’s incredibly remarkable to think anyone would consider that a responsible approach.
“What is”, as you call it, is by no means “what has to be”. As I have asked before, why do there no longer seem to be adults in Israel?
This is a rather odd statement. Up till now, I’ve assumed you were firm opponent of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, but this particular statement seems to think you believe that the Palestinians who complain about the occupation are whiny bitches who should shut up and accept what they brought on themselves and that Israelis should feel no shame in the occupation.
Would you mind explaining because based on the logic of the above statement, that is how you should feel, but I doubt that’s how you feel?
Thanks in advance.
That of course is as stupid, ignorant, and racist as Abba Eban’s silly argument that “the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”
Why not viable? Of course we’re assuming Palestine controls its own river-border with Jordan, so it has an outlet for foreign commerce even without Gaza – which, again, we must assume controls its own border with Egypt.
In much the same way that someone who lives in a bad neighborhood and gets mugged brought it on himself.
You should bear in mind that, while you and I may not like it, it was Israel’s elected government that encouraged people to settle there. And these people and their children see the place as their homes, no less than the Palestinians do. Personally, I exclude from that the ultra-extremists who chose to settle in the depth of the WB.
I wonder. It seems to me almost everyone except the existence of the large Arab minority in Israel (many of whom consider themselves to be Palestinians) – and yet do not question the demand of the Palestinians for a Judenrein Palestine. That is, not two states for two peoples, but rather one “full” state for one people (two, if you count Hamas’s Gaza), and another shared one for both.
Why is that? Why won’t you accept a settlers’ option of staying as citizens in Palestine?
True. But as long as I don’t see any reasonable path from “what is” to “what I’d like”, I will assume that “what is” is “what will be”.
The Fence (it’s only a wall for about 5% of its length, mainly as a way of stopping sniper fire on Israeli highways) may be arbitrary, but then again, so was the Green Line. And from what I’ve seen in person, Israelis already treat it as a de facto border. I was in the Territories for a few weeks last month as part of my reserve duty, and everyone there already referred to the land west of the fence as “Israel”, as in, “Can anyone give me a ride back to Israel?”. That may seem obvious to you, but it’s a huge change from only 10 years ago, when only the most dedicated leftists would refer to the Territories as a foreign country.
Borders make their own reality. You draw a line on a map, and sooner or later, you’ll stop thinking of the other side as yours. That’s one reason why I think the Fence is the best thing to happen to the peace process in years - it’s done far more than anything else to change Israeli perceptions about the West Bank.
Note that the cheering Jews in this picture were NOT going to get Jerusalem under the plan they were so ecstatic about.
It’s also worth noting that when it was under Arab control, Jerusalem was never the capital of anything. It was not even a provincial capital. What changed to make Jerusalem suddenly so important to the Arabs?
There will be peace once the Arabs give up their dream of putting an end to Jewish Israel.
However, the Latvians (and I suspect the other Baltic states) dealt with that with a “non-Citizen” status that gave them the right to settle and little else. Perhaps those in illegal settlements could end up with that.
Or they could even offer them citizenship. Or residency permits.
The best solution would be for Israel to offer them incentives to move back there.
Agreed. One of the few things both sides will agree on is that having several hundred thousand Jewish settlers in a Palestinian state is a non-starter.
Also, I suspect far more of the settlers would be willing to leave then is commonly assumed. Allessan would know better, but at least in the 90s, the religious Gush Emunim(sp) types were a minority and settlers were more likely to be people attracted by cheap housing in what they saw as natural suburbs of Jerusalem.
If I sue my neighbour over the shed he built on our property lie, that’s a peaceful solution. It may to be friendly, but it’s peaceful. Wouldn’t you prefer that to me pulling a gun?
None of it is peaceful. There is a difference between peace and non-violence.
I will concede the possibility that Abbas wants to destroy Jewish Israel non-violently, i.e. by pressuring Israel to make more and more concessions until it is majority Arab. Once Israel is majority Arab, it’s over.
No it’s not peaceful. (And note that if you obtain a judgment that the shed is encroaching on your property, it will be enforced, if necessary, with violent force.)
Similarly, if Abbas succeeds in having warrants issued for the arrest of IDF officers on phony war crimes charges, it’s not peaceful. It may be non-violent (at least superficially) but it’s not peaceful.
By the way, you never gave me the quote cite and link I asked for. Do you concede that cannot substantiate your claim about Abbas supporting Israel as a Jewish state?
No surprise there. According to you, peaceful is if the Palestinians just laid down and offered for Israel to take anything they want in exchange for the promise, sometime, in the future, of having a plot of land that resembled a state based on Israel’s conditions. :rolleyes:
Too bad for you the world doesn’t work like that. Abbas fought for an negotiated with the member countries of the UN to get that deal done. It was as peaceful a solution as there can be and it came about through negotiation. While this isn’t the goal, its one step in getting a state and I am impressed that the Palestinians could do it so peacefully
