So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State?

Great Debates
81

These are my own pants based on your current statements, you would have no problem with the Israeli government forcing arabs out of Israel then? Not just restricting movment and limiting voting rights in certain cases, like now, but rounding them up (at gunpoint) and forcing them out of the country, with no reparations for their property?

Because that is what will have to happen to get the settlers out of the WB. And it will also involve more than a little bloodshed.

In the early 1900’s, a Mexican warlord staged raids across the border into New Mexico. The US Responded with an expedition of almost 5000 men into Mexico proper.

What is the proper Israeli response to rocket attacks originating out of the “State of Palestine”?

82

When terrorists crossed over from Egypt, that didn’t go over very well. :confused:

83

Do you read the posts you’re responding to?

brazil wasn’t talking about a poll. He presented the 1947 rejection as a prima facie case that the Palestinians don’t want a state. He responded to my post by citing other evidence, but his original assertion was silly.

Anyway, you get to talk about people in terms of “those in charge” when you’re talking about a state. You can’t do that with regard to the Palestinians because they haven’t got one.

As ralph suggests (with surprising insight), a recognized state can be held accountable for things that a quasi-autonomous territorial authority can’t.

84

I would be curious as to his opinion about the descendants of Jews who were forced out of Arab controlled areas in the 1930s and 40s. This includes Baghdad, Gaza City, East Jerusalem, and Hebron.

Are these people entitled to compensation?

85

Say what? My original post contained evidence which goes through to this very day.

Can you give me an example of how this would work?

86

No, your original post presented the 1947 rejection as indicative of the views of modern day Palestinians.

I suppose the Palestinian position on whether citizenship will be offered to the Palestinian diaspora is evidence “which goes through to this very day”, but I don’t see how that is in any way evidence that they don’t want a state.

[QUOTE=ralph]
Upon reflection, I think (now) that a UN declaration of a Palestinian state would be the best possible thing for Netanhanyu. Consider this:
-he now has a government that he can formally negotiate with
-he can tell the settlers:“either move back into Israel or take your chances”
-he can request UN peacekeepers to patrol the borders
-if the Palestinian state collapses (and attacks Israel), he can unleash his forces and completely destroy the palestinians. No more rocket attcks
[/QUOTE]

87

No, it contained evidence which goes through to today:

Reading is fundamental.

Well let me ask you this:

Why wouldn’t they at least offer citizenship to Palestinian Arabs who are living as so-called “refugees” right on the West Bank?

ETA: And why haven’t the descendants of Arabs who fled Gaza 1967 been allowed to “return”?

88

The most obvious reason is that by minimizing the size and scope of the proposed Palestine they have a better shot at getting the Israelis to accept it. I can’t even guess at your reasoning for your alternative theory, so I can’t say if it makes sense or not.

89

That’s ridiculous, the Israelis are already dead set against it. Besides, the Israelis would be much more likely to accept the plan if it would put an end to the “refugee” issue.

As a Zionist, I would be much more supportive of the concept of a Palestinian State on the West Bank and Gaza if such a state would accept Palestinian Arabs the same way that Israel accepts Jews.

The real reasons are very simple and obvious. The Arabs want to demographically destroy Jewish Israel by getting Israel to accept the descendants of Arabs who fled in 1948. They want to undermine Israel by creating a “refugee” problem which can be blamed on Israel.

Offering citizenship to Palestinian Arabs would work against this goal. Allowing “refugees” to “return” to Gaza would work against this goal.

90

Can you give me an example of how this might work?

91

It’s also worth noting that the Palestinian Arabs turned down 2 or 3 offers from Israel which would have given them a state.

92

What’s most important is that they aren’t willing to negotiate with Israel. They’re going to the antisemitic and racist UN - which makes them a State in Name Only.

93

Yes.

I’ve never seen any picture of “Palestine” that didn’t include all of what is now Israel and I’ve met few Palestinians who didn’t consider all Jewish Israelis settlers and few who didn’t view all Jews as legitimate targets.

Obviously, I still have sympathy for them despite them having some unsavory beliefs, but there’s no reason to pretend that they’re something that they aren’t.

94

Here is a poster which sums things up pretty well:

95

I said over 100,000, not 100,000. 100,000 is an unreasonably low-estimation for arab civilians dead before 9/11. I’m seeing figures of 1.4 MILLION after September 11. This guy has taken the low-end estimates of muslims killed in just the past 30 years 1989-2009… now we are only looking at 1989-2001, so that gives us… twelve years. Not the whole century, just 100 years, and let’s see what he arrives at using the cautious estimates (hint: it’s over 100,000):

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/30/why_they_hate_us_ii_how_many_muslims_has_the_us_killed_in_the_past_30_years

This is not even counting Israel, which by the pro-Israeli’s own arguments is a US base and outpost in the middle east. I don’t know why you’re throwing off the idea that Israel is a proxy state of the US… that’s what the US claims it is… their number 1 ally in the middle east. And of course this also isn’t even counting all the immense interfering and damage the US does to the Arab world by taking up a different side, or providing arms or bombs and getting other people to do their dirty work for them, etc.

Nobody has proved they used dirty bombs in Vietnam yet, but with the amount of horrific birth defects, cancer, disfigured and deformed people in Vietnam, it would be very hard to believe that there weren’t dirty bombs used. The terrorist organisation Monsanto’s Agent Orange was responsible for most of it, however it can be very hard to find or quantify this stuff. But it would be hard to imagine that they “desisted” from using them when only they had the technology and the one time when they definitely wouldn’t be caught. You really think the US army is all squeaky clean? Come on.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/US-Depleted-Uranium-on-Lib-by-Jay-Janson-110406-418.html

The UN are still trying to deny that they are using dirty bombs in Libya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDrBh-qMOGY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmK7B6mOsHU

Listen to the very last five/six seconds of the first clip, I think it sums up the attitude of the people doing this.

At first humans fought each other with their hands or wrestling. There was nothing wrong with that sometimes. Later they moved on to swords, and even often guns.

At least there was a bit of honour, a bit of courage involved in fighting sword to sword with someone, or being involved in a duel or a shoot-out. The people involved knew the risks, they took their chances. They didn’t kill men, women or innocent children.

Even going into the air, being a shooter. Yeah it was nasty business, but there was still a bit of honour, a bit of guile and understanding that went into it.

Now the soldiers just sit at home on their “real-life playstations”, they don’t even have to get into a cockpit, they just murder people from home. They go in with their dirty bombs. There is NO risk to them at all. It’s all too easy.

The person on the ground who looks up and sees this aircraft, he might get a bazooka before or something like that. Fight off this thing. But now he’s not able to because it’s all automated. He is attacking a robot. The US will just send another one in. They are rotten, scumbag, bastards, the lowest and vilest beings on the face of the earth.

The US openly dropped them in Iraq. Take a look at this page:

http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/depleted_uranium_iraq_afghanistan_balkans.html

Are you really going to defend these people? These people are the scum of the earth, they are millions of times worse than any 9/11. Frankly, I think 9/11 was a good thing and that the US deserved it. I think Barack Obama should be hunted down and shot, like Bin Laden was. I’m not inciting anyone to do it, just saying it would be just in my opinion. There is no logical, reasonable explanation as to why people should say Bin Laden is “worse” than Barack Obama. There is no justifiable defence to say that 9/11 was worse than the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians the US killed abroad then and now.

96

Which, btw, represents almost the entire rest of the world.

You sure you want to go there? :dubious:

97

Unfortunately, there’s not much choice. We are all stuck in a world where the United Nations Human Rights Commission condemns Israel as much as all other nations combined.

98

Talk about an inconsequential repudiation. Hence, it would be a waste of time to even ask for cite of Abbas elaborating on what he meant.

Anyways, I think there’s some confusion on the terms of recognition so my understanding is that Abbas is willing to recognize Israel as a state but Netanyahu wants recognition of Israel as a “Jewish State”. Which makes it for a perfect deadlock.

I can see why Abbas will not recognize it as “Jewish State” as it implies Israeli Palestinians as 2nd class citizens and, to a high ideological degree, admits that Israel has a claim on all of the territory of so called “Old Palestine” as religious wing would be much fanned by this.

And, I can see Netanyahu insisting on “Jewish State” because recognizing just Israel as a state somehow removes the all important notion of Jews being, I don’t know, on their own, in their country arranging things how they want and in accordance with Torah and whatnot and without the need to worry how minorities feel.

And, to be honest, I can see “logic” in both concerns. The deadlock however is that the only side that can make any guarantees hold, Government of US is so in bed with Netanyahu government which makes it impossible for Abbas to agree on “Jewish State” in theory and then see in practice further increase in illegal settlements.

However, not to say that I don’t have sympathy for reasons to have “Jewish State” but isn’t the project of homeland by nationalist Zionists completed? Why demand for recognition of religious designation of the State of Israel?

99

You apparently dismiss the possibility of there being a factual basis for that.

100

Because of the “refugee” problem. See, lots of Arabs fled the area in 1948 just like millions of people fled from or chased out of various parts of the world in the 1930s and 1940s. However, unlike other refugees whose descendants were absorbed into their host countries, many of the Arab refugees’ descendants have not been so absorbed. Israel doesn’t want to accept these people because it will destroy Israel’s character as a Jewish state.

So if the Arabs recognize Israel as a Jewish State, it’s basically a concession that Israel does not need to accept those Arabs. Incidentally, it’s the same reason why a hypothetical Palestinian state would not offer citizenship to the Palestinian Arab “refugees” – it would be giving up an opportunity to undermine Israel.