Jehovah’s Witnesses.
T.S. Eliot.
Well, I GUESS you could, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
Let me put it another way. One basic principle God follows is that he removes his children from his wrath before he punishes the wicked. Some examples:
Before God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, he removed Lot and his family.
Before God flooded the earth, he removed Noah and his family.
Before God sent the plague of the death of the first born over Egypt, he protected the Israelites.
Therefore it just makes sense that before God begins sending his wrath down during the Tribulation, he will remove his children.
Some verses to back this principle up:
I Thessalonians 5:9-10 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.”
The Bible also speaks of two ressurections, one for those who trusted Christ and are now dead (this ressurection will include Christians who are alive when it happens), and a second ressurection that includes the dead who did not trust Christ. These ressurections occur over 1000 years apart, so I don’t see how both can occur “at the end.”
But this is getting quite off-topic, although I am willing to continue if there is any further inquiry.
Huh. I am obviously not up on my JW doctrine, although now I seem to vaguely remeber references to JWs v. “trinitarians”. I always though J.C.'s divinity was a given for Christians (and in fact, I ran across a lot of links to people saying JW’s weren’t Christian. I’ll call 'em whatever they want to be called, though. I don’t think more traditional Christians should be too surprised that the strangeness of three-yet-one and “wholly God and wholly man” inspired a spinoff that rejected it).
RT, Eliot wrote some beautiful spiritual poety (although in my mind, he always seemed uncomfortable with spirituality) but I don’t recall him both accepting wholly J.C.'s divinity and debating it. Debating something you accept as wholly true seems to be purely academic. I can “debate” that water is wet, but I would hardly dignify it as an actual debate; and it’s just an intellectual exercise if I take it on faith that water is wet. I suppose you can talk of the nature of J.C.'s divinity, but to seriously debate something you wholly accept on faith seems useless.
Let me clarify a bit–
Christ’s divinity is accepted by almost all sects of xnity (there are only a few fringe groups -including JW’s- that might be considered as Xn, but I can’t recall them of the top of my head). Most people leave it at that. But for those who actively study theology, Jesus is accepted, but not necessarily assumed. There is a whole branch of theology known as Christology, which studies all aspects of Christ, including his divinity. And it probably is just an academic exercise, as Gaudere points out. The question raised in the OP is usually lumped in with eschatology, the study of the end times. Since there is so much other stuff dealt with in eschatology, most of which is more controversial, such as the Rapture, the millenial reign, and other fun topics. As a result, it gets pushed aside.
As for what happens when you die, I think both Tris and RT said it pretty well.
-Dave
“Violence is the last refuge of the ignorant.”
-I. Asimov
When you die(as long as it is in combat or some kind…otherwise its a bit different) you will end up at Valhalla. Your soul will be brought up by Valkyries and taken to the great hall of Valhalla. This is the training hall for those who died in battle. In this great hall you will fight and train for the final battle of Ragnarock. The training will be fierce and many wounds will be sustained. Then as nightfall comes Odin and all of the warriors will gather together for a great feast. During that banquet your wounds will be healed preparing you for another day.
I look forward to it.
Openfist- the Odinist
Actually, there was a movie called “Flatliners” with Julia Roberts I believe, in which a team of student doctors “killed” each other, then revived them after a minute or two, to see what was on the other side. It was pretty interesting movie.
Yes, I have heard of NDE-ers experiencing a “hell”, and have markedly changed their ways!
What is funny about NDEs, as opposed to dreams or hallucinations, is that they change people’s lives drastically, as a rule. The people tend to live a better life, and aren’t afraid of death. Pretty intresting stuff.
Patrick Ashley
“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown
Here’s a bit on NDEs from our own Cecil:
Do near-death experiences prove there is life after death?
"Blackmore points out that you don’t have to be near death to feel you are floating through a tunnel. It’s common “in epilepsy and migraine, when falling asleep, meditating, or just relaxing, with pressure on both eyeballs, and with certain drugs, such as LSD, psilocybin, and mescaline.”
Why? Blackmore guesses it has to do with the structure of the visual cortex, the part of the brain that contains a “map” of what the eyes see. “There are lots of [cortical] cells representing the center of the visual field but very few for the edges,” she says. As the brain begins to lose control, whether due to oxygen loss, drugs, or fatigue, random neural firing apparently begins to occur, which the mind interprets as light. Since there are more cells in the center of the visual field than at the edge, you get the impression of a light at the end of a tunnel. As random firing increases, the “light” takes up a larger portion of the visual field, making you think you are floating toward the light source.
You also don’t have to be near death to have an out-of-body experience. We know that surgical stimulation of the brain can trigger extremely realistic recreations from memory, and something similar probably occurs during an OBE or NDE. Subjects see themselves from afar because many people habitually use a bird’s-eye view when dreaming or remembering. (If you’re one of them, research suggests you may be more likely to have an OBE.) In short, Blackmore thinks that while the near-death experience is real, it can be explained on neurological grounds. Disillusioning, but in keeping with science’s role as party pooper to the human race."
Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can’t see Her.
Gaudere:
The resurrection issue is a bit more complicated and is the subject of quite a few debates amongst the medieval Rabbis. Where there’s a consensus, it seems to be that resurrection will not occur until after the coming of the Messiah anyway, so until then, what I said is true for all people dying these days. The argument appears to be whether the resurrection will be temporary, to allow the righteous to experience the ultimate Earthly experience (i.e., Earth in the Messianic era) before returning to their eternal rest, or whether it will be permanent, and death will be erased from human existence altogether. In any case, you are right that the quality of one’s post-resurrection existence depends heavily on how good one was in one’s first life…with the evil ones not being allowed that experience at all.
Chaim Mattis Keller