There are many references in the New Testament to the Day of Judgement, when graves shall give up their dead, miraculously made whole again, when all who have ever lived on this earth will appear before the divine tribunal, when good deeds and sins will be weighed in the balance, and Jesus will send the good to heaven and doom the sinners to hell.
Does it not follow then that nobody is in heaven or hell yet since, unless I missed it, the Day of Judgement has not yet occurred?
‘yet’ is a term that relates to our sequential experience of time.
Seeing as how that is the only way so far we can experience time, bringing up any other theoretical ways to measure it can only confuse the issue, IMHO.
Back to the OP. This little bit of scripture does seem to be glossed over by the popular Christian religions, doesn’t it? Can someone point out verses that indicate that we go to Heaven immediately following the The Big Bucket Kick?
I don’t think it confuses the issue at all Czar; certainly from an individual’s earthly perspective, that individual isn’t in heaven yet, but I’m quite happy to posit that from the perspective of that person’s husband who died yesterday, they are both there - this wouldn’t a case of the person existing in two places at the same time, just that no matter where and when you leave, you all arrive at the same time and place.
But the question isn’t whether we arrive at the same place, it is when do we arrive at the same place. For the purposes of this discussion, why don’t we stick to the standard definition of time, otherwise both the word and the OP are meaningless.
I don’t think it’s particularly useful (in fact in my view it’s positively misleading) to stick to the standard definiton of time when we’re discussing a realm that by (some at least) definition(s) exists outside of normal space and time constraints.
You see, I happen to believe that there is no difference between the view that people die and remain unconscious until collectively judged and the view that people die and are immediately judged.
The period of unconsciousness be non-existent for the person (not)experiencing it, but that’s not what I’m suggesting; I propose that people who died five thousand years ago arrived *immediately at the same point in ‘time’(even though the term is not truly applicable) in ‘eternity’ as people who died this morning; all points along time are equally distant from eternity, just like all points on the circumference of a circle are equidistant from the centre.
I’m not trying to dodge the issue here; it could be argued that the prophetic writings concerning judgement in the NT are an account of a view of the actual event, rather than some sort of multimiedia preview.
I’m sorry, but the common definition of time is the most useful way to discuss the situation precisely because it is the only one we currently have a chance of understanding. If you apply the “time flows in all directions and thus everything can-will-did happen-already happen” definition, you play havok with most discussions. Besides, it’s still iffy that Heaven(if it exists) exists outside of space and time, so bringing that possibility into the discussion can only muddy the waters.
Using the common(and most understood) definition of time as we now know it, it does seem that Heaven is pretty empty right now.
dammit, must preview.
I don’t think there’s any way to satisfy you then Czar; by insisting on the application of our perspective of time and space, you have disqualified a full and proper answer.
No, by my wanting to limit the definition of time to the common one, I have “disqualified” any answer that is off-topic to the actual question asked. Using the uncommon definition of time you wish to use, we reduce to nonsense such questions as:
Did Man exist at the same time as the dinosaurs?
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Who inhabited North America first?
Who came up with the phrase “The Whole Nine Yards” first?
aldiboronti merely wanted to know if the soul goes immediately up to Heaven, or does it wait in the ground, conscious or not, until that last trumpet solo wows the crowd.
OK, my answer then is that the soul goes immediately to heaven, but that all souls arrive together at the same point, regardless of whether they departed earthly existence this morning or a million years ago.
So they leave at different times, but arrive at the same time? Doesn’t this conflict with biblical verses that say that the souls stay put until the Final Call?
I’m not a religious person, but I think this is an excellent question. Sorry to see that you’ve mainly received abstract answers, aldiboronti. I think the way the Bible tells it that when you die you’re, well, just dead. I really can’t read into it any other message, myself. That people go straight to heaven after death is probably just a more comforting thought to the loved ones left behind. That way people can feel less alone. A death may make the trip seem short to the deceased, but not to an observer who’s alive and still on Earth, if that makes any sense. I hope some people more educated than I am can answer the question better, since I’ve wondered what the church-going crowd thought about this myself.
I’m not very religious, but this is what a local JW told me once.
After we die, our souls are in limbo, not doing anything, just sort of asleep, until judgement day, then God will decide who goes to Heaven and who doesn’t. She also says that hell is not a place, she tells me that what it means, is just that your soul is never awakened.
My interpretation has always been (and I am an atheist, so keep that in perspective) that when all of this was written, which was likely a good time after it was first said and gained popular belief, people thought that Judgment Day was just around the corner. They were thinking in terms of months, or a few years at most. Hence, since the religion was relatively new, it was speaking more to the fact that all of your passed relatives could be grandfathered in, even if they were not practicing Christians, but good people none the less. And anyone who was alive needed to join the fray or be doomed to Hell. Things got funky when Judgment Day kept being postponed. Now there were people who lived ready to go to heaven, having to wait in the ground. Popular belief changed the terms so that all of these new arrivals didn’t just sit in the ground but went directly to Heaven (or Hell). Otherwise the concept of going to Heaven would be too inaccessible to the masses.
Of course this assumes that the Heaven/Hell concept was introduced with Christianity as a popular concept. It may have been just a restatement of what people already believed. My knowledge of Religion is sparse, so I can’t back this up one way or another. Still, this is how I always made sense of it.
I don’t think so; from the point of view of those of us still living, there would be an interval between the person’s death and the time that we are all judged, but from the point of view of the departed sould, there would be none.
Short version of the Catholic perspective:
Assuming you’re not making a stop in purgatory, the soul shoots off to heaven. Waits there for the final judgment, at which we’d have the Resurrection (and the graves give up their dead), such that the souls in heaven are reunited with their bodies.
The following exceptions apparently apply: Enoch (see early chapters of Genesis; he “walked with the Lord” instead of dying), Elijah (went up in a chariot); Christ himself (ascended in his resurrected body); and for the Catholics, Mary (we’re not exactly sure what happened here, whether she actually died or just went poof).
The way I have been taught is this:
We all arrive at the same time even thought we die at different times.
You cannot use a standard definiton of time with something out of our realm. That would be assuming that we are one the same brain level as God.
It’s like this: We are all on a really long subway. You could be sitting at the end car, middle car or begining. When the train stops, we all get out at the same place even though we are sitting in different cars.
Mangetout said it best.
beginning