Social Credit System...can you imagine this working in your country?

[XT]

Based on this YouTube video, though you don’t need to watch it if you don’t want to. The question is basically that asked by one of the channel’s associates at the end of the video. The video asks Chinese citizens what they think of their Social Credit System and then about specific details about it which a lot of them don’t seem to be aware of. It’s interesting that every person was for the system, though when they went into some details they thought those were pretty ridiculous or bad. For some background, here is a wiki article onChina’s Social Credit System:

The Social Credit System is a proposed Chinese government initiative for developing a national reputation system.[1][2][3] It has been reported to be intended to assign a “social credit” rating to every citizen based on government data regarding their economic and social status.[4][3][5][6][7] It works as a mass surveillance tool and uses big data analysis technology.[8] In addition, it is also meant to rate businesses operating on the Chinese market.[9]

Planning Outline for the Construction of a Social Credit System (2014–2020)

The Social Credit System is an example of China’s “top-level design” (顶层设计) approach. It is coordinated by the Central Leading Group for Comprehensively Deepening Reforms.[9] According to the overall “Planning Outline for the Construction of a Social Credit System (2014–2020)” issued by the State Council, the Social Credit System will focus on four areas: “honesty in government affairs” (政务诚信), “commercial integrity” (商务诚信), “societal integrity” (社会诚信), and “judicial credibility” (司法公信).[10] Media coverage has thus far focused mostly on the rating of individual citizens (which falls under “societal integrity”). However, the Chinese government‘s plans go beyond that and also include plans for credit scores for all businesses operating in China.[9]

The Chinese government wants the basic structures of the Social Credit System to be in place by 2020.[10] It is unclear whether the system will work as envisioned by then, but the Chinese government has fast-tracked the implementation of the Social Credit System, resulting in the publication of numerous policy documents and plans since the main plan was issued in 2014. If the Social Credit System is implemented as envisioned, it will constitute a new way of controlling both the behavior of individuals and of businesses.[9]

The main outline often mentioned in Western news outlet stories, the “State Council Notice concerning Issuance of the Planning Outline for the Construction of a Social Credit System (2014–2020)”, was issued by China’s State Council on June 14, 2014.[10][11] Rogier Creemers, a post-doctoral scholar at the Programme for Comparative Media Law and Policy at the University of Oxford[12], has posted a translation of the document.[10]

The goal of the initiative according to the Planning Outline is “raising the awareness for integrity and the level of credibility within society.”[11] The Social Credit System is presented as an important means to perfect the “socialist market economy” (完善社会主义市场经济体制) as well as strengthening and innovating governance of society (加强和创新社会治理).[11] This indicates that the Chinese government views it both as an important means to regulate the economy and as a tool of governance to steer the behavior of citizens.

Among other things, the Social Credit System is meant to provide an answer to the problem of lack of trust on the Chinese market. Proponents argue that it will help eliminate problems such as food safety issues, cheating, and counterfeit goods.[13]

The Social Credit System will be limited to Mainland China and thus does not apply to Hong Kong and Macau.[citation needed] However, at present, plans do not distinguish between Chinese companies and foreign companies operating on the Chinese market, raising the possibility that foreign businesses operating in China will be subjected to the system as well.[9]
Implementation

In 2015, eight companies were licensed to begin trial credit systems. The companies selected were Alibaba Group’s Ant Financial, software developer Tencent and six others.[14] The scoring systems run by the private companies used data such as Sesame Credit to begin the experimental phase.[15]

No licenses to private companies were granted in 2017.[14]

As of February 2018, no comprehensive, nation-wide social credit system exists, but there are multiple pilots testing the system on a local level as well as in specific sectors of industry.[16] One such program has been implemented in Shanghai through its Honest Shanghai app, which uses facial recognition software to browse government records, and rates users accordingly.[17] Some reports have stated that the ratings may use information gathered from Chinese citizens’ online behavior.[1]

In March 2018, Reuters reported that restrictions on citizens and businesses with low trustworthiness Social Credit ratings would come into effect on May 1st.[18]
Social credit for businesses

For businesses, the Social Credit System is meant to serve as a market regulation mechanism. The goal is to establish a self-enforcing regulatory regime fueled by big data in which businesses exercise “self-restraint” (企业自我约束). The basic idea is that with a functional credit system in place, companies will comply with government policies and regulations to avoid having their scores lowered.[9] As currently envisioned, companies with good credit scores will enjoy benefits such as good credit conditions, lower tax rates, and more investment opportunities. Companies with bad credit scores will potentially face unfavorable conditions for new loans, higher tax rates, investment restrictions, and lower chances to participate in publicly funded projects.[9] Government plans also envision real-time monitoring of a business’s activities. In that case, infractions on the part of a business could result in a lowered score almost instantly. However, whether this will actually happen depends on the future implementation of the system as well as on the availability of technology needed for this kind of monitoring.[9]

In the video, several of those being interview were of the opinion that the US already has a similar system, and they pointed to Facebook as an example. So, the discussion can take that into account as well…do we already have a system similar to this in place in the US (or other western countries)? If not, should we? Would it help? Or is this just something good for the Chinese internally and really not something that could be exported across the world? Or, is this good for the Chinese? Feel free to chime in on any of it. The video is from one of the web sites I subscribe to called Asian Boss, which I really enjoy, and which does interviews with locals in various Asian countries, including obviously China on a wide range of topics. Check it out if that sort of thing interests you…it’s good to get a different perspective sometimes from people who live in a different country, and often the things they say or know about (or don’t know about) give some interesting insights, IMHO anyway.

[DavidwithanR]

I don’t know the Chinese situation at all.

My impression from other social credit explanations has been more or less this:

A labourer’s maximum income is necessarily below the cost of raw materials, but in the end everyone must buy finished goods. Therefore, supply and demand is an inherently flawed system, which can and must be corrected for by income supplementation - and if it isn’t corrected, the supply side is hurt just as badly as the demand side is.

Have I written a rudimentary outline of social credit, or a nonsensical mess?

[XT]

@DavidwithanR

I don’t know the Chinese situation at all.

My impression from other social credit explanations has been more or less this:

A labourer’s maximum income is necessarily below the cost of raw materials, but in the end everyone must buy finished goods. Therefore, supply and demand is an inherently flawed system, which can and must be corrected for by income supplementation - and if it isn’t corrected, the supply side is hurt just as badly as the demand side is.

Have I written a rudimentary outline of social credit, or a nonsensical mess?

No, it has nothing to do with that at all. Read the wiki article I linked too…the summary is the first paragraph in the article, which I also pasted above.

[jasg]

This thread brings a Black Miiror episode to mind. Wiki (spoilers) here.

[DavidwithanR]

Reputation envisioned as a regulated commodity. Hmmmm.

Or, my reputation as legislated by the party.

Or, the Chinese version of a Better Business Bureau.

Or, a way to add “teeth” to current regulations.

I have no idea how to realistically interpret what I’m reading, because I don’t have a Chinese context in my mind within which to interpret it.

[XT]

@DavidwithanR

Reputation envisioned as a regulated commodity. Hmmmm.

Or, my reputation as legislated by the party.

Or, the Chinese version of a Better Business Bureau.

Or, a way to add “teeth” to current regulations.

I have no idea how to realistically interpret what I’m reading, because I don’t have a Chinese context in my mind within which to interpret it.

Not just your reputation (and not just reputation) either…your friends, family, even co-workers can affect your score. Anything you say on social media can effect it as well. Also, what you buy can effect it, according to the video. By ‘cheap’ or ‘knock off’ products (the mind boggles on both of these wrt China) and it can negatively affect your score.

As for context, watch the video…those people already know the context of this system wrt what they are used to (i.e. that the CCP has all their data, mines it all from any Chinese company they like any time they want to, and even pressures foreign companies into playing along if they can). The real question I’m asking, though, is does anyone think this sort of system would fly in their home countries (obviously any Chinese 'dopers can just relate their own experiences, since it’s already happening there).

[DavidwithanR]

Orwell, I guess.

I have a hard time seeing Facebook in a different light from this though. I happen to like the current leadership of Facebook more than I like the current government of China, but that could quickly change.

Maybe our biggest (only?) advantage in this sphere is that so far, westerners can - with effort - opt out.

[Northern_Piper]

@DavidwithanR

I don’t know the Chinese situation at all.

My impression from other social credit explanations has been more or less this:

A labourer’s maximum income is necessarily below the cost of raw materials, but in the end everyone must buy finished goods. Therefore, supply and demand is an inherently flawed system, which can and must be corrected for by income supplementation - and if it isn’t corrected, the supply side is hurt just as badly as the demand side is.

Have I written a rudimentary outline of social credit, or a nonsensical mess?

That’s Social Credit Mark I, which was floating around in the 1920s and 1930s. Tried without any success in wacky Alberta, Canada, and I think in New Zealand.

XT’s link seems to be completely different and a wonderful aid to totalitarianism.

[Roderick_Femm]

@Northern_Piper

That’s Social Credit Mark I, which was floating around in the 1920s and 1930s. Tried without any success in wacky Alberta, Canada, and I think in New Zealand.

XT’s link seems to be completely different and a wonderful aid to totalitarianism.

I don’t want to read the article, but I’m curious what happens to people with low scores? What’s the penalty? I ask because I am certain that if we had this system I would be in the bottom 1% of scores.

[DavidwithanR]

@Roderick_Femm

I don’t want to read the article, but I’m curious what happens to people with low scores? What’s the penalty? I ask because I am certain that if we had this system I would be in the bottom 1% of scores.

Imagine if all your financial transactions and all your emails/posts/tweets/conversations went directly to the Chinese government. They could do whatever they wanted with the info.

[Batano]

@jasg

This thread brings a Black Miiror episode to mind. Wiki (spoilers) here.

that was my first thought as well.

[septimus]

I often seem almost like a Luddite in opposing new technology; the effect modern communication has on human society and personal behavior is already huge. If Darwinian evolution spent millions of years “optimizing” human behavior should we expect Facebook’s profit-seeking to quickly “optimize” it further?

And, as others said upthread, I don’t see the Chinese plan as fundamentally different than what Facebook, Google et al are already doing, just much more powerful.

So … do we want our lives monitored and therefore regulated by an authoritarian government or by private profit-seeking companies? Do we prefer capture by Scylla or by Charybdis? Most of us would opt to empower Facebook, I think, just because it’s weaker and easier to deceive, but the Facebook of the future will be increasingly powerful.

The Chinese system might hinder political corruption — corrupt officials get low scores. As for political corruption in America, we’ve already seen Facebook sell political power for money.

[Horatius]

@DavidwithanR

Reputation envisioned as a regulated commodity. Hmmmm.

Or, my reputation as legislated by the party.

**Or, the Chinese version of a Better Business Bureau.
**
Or, a way to add “teeth” to current regulations.

I have no idea how to realistically interpret what I’m reading, because I don’t have a Chinese context in my mind within which to interpret it.

The highlighted bit is key, I think. They seem to be expanding the idea of a BBB to every aspect of life, in hopes of producing a higher level of trust in every aspect of society.

The issue of a high-trust society vs a low-trust society is one that many people have discussed in relation to how successful a society can become: How to get poor countries out of low-trust ruts | The Economist

Part of problem with China is that corruption is widespread, and well-known, leading to a low-trust situation. How to turn that around is a serious problem, it’s much easier to lose trust than to build it.

@septimus

The Chinese system might hinder political corruption — corrupt officials get low scores. As for political corruption in America, we’ve already seen Facebook sell political power for money.

The problem with this scheme is, if your system is already corrupt, how can you trust that the system they’re building to monitor corruption is trustworthy? Well, you can’t, can you? Thus the problem.

Western Society took hundreds (maybe thousands) of years to build the level of trust we have now, with organizations like the BBB working hard to build their reputation for integrity. You can’t just will that level of trust into being by fiat. For this to work, China will need to show some early, very public successes in weeding out corruption (in whatever form), and then maintain that level of integrity over the long term.

This will not be easy, and failure in this attempt would just make the next attempt even harder. That’s not to say they shouldn’t try, but maybe they shouldn’t talk it up too much too soon, either.

[Czarcasm]

Reported.

[Shodan]

[ol][li]I hope the CIA and/or the NSA can hack this system as soon as, or before, it goes live.[/li][li]As Horatius mentions, a government-controlled system isn’t going to be used to fight corruption in government.[/li][li]For my society, I don’t care for the idea that my life will be controlled by how many Likes I get on Facebook. [/li][li]I wonder if the Chinese are biting off more than they can chew. As more and more Chinese come online, it is going to be more and more difficult to manage the data. And therefore they are going to have to pick and choose what they want to look at. Obviously they are going to go after dissidents, whistle-blowers, and trouble-makers first. Working it as a Better Business Bureau is going to come second. [/li][li]Tech-savvy Chinese need to contact the Russians for advice on how to write some bots to bump up their hit counts and raise their social ratings.[/ol][/li]Regards,
Shodan

[senoy]

Facebook is not the same as the proposed social credit scheme. The closest equivalent in the US is your credit score. So the best way for us to think of it is a credit score for your life only instead of it just affecting your chances of getting a loan, it impacts everything.

Do you want a driver’s license? What’s your ‘social credit score?’ Spend too much time online gaming? Sorry, no car for you. Do you want a job? Seems your social credit score is too low, sorry. Do you want to participate in local elections? Let’s check your score. With businesses, they are regulating their tax rate, so expect that to end up with individuals as well. You’ve spent 5 hours in the last week on SDMB? Your taxes go up by 1%. You commented that you thought that President Xi should have a term limit? Taxes go up by 20%. The final outcome is that it turns into self-censorship because the credit score is so vague you have no idea what’s going to happen to you, so you stay incredibly within the lines.

In the US? I think that if it were just announced that this was happening, there would be blood in the streets. Could it eventually creep in? Maybe. If you had told me in the 1980s that we’d be voluntarily turning over most of our personal information, our location, our civic memberships and our purchasing history to big corporations I would have called you an irrational alarmist, yet here we are.

[XT]

@senoy

Facebook is not the same as the proposed social credit scheme. The closest equivalent in the US is your credit score. So the best way for us to think of it is a credit score for your life only instead of it just affecting your chances of getting a loan, it impacts everything.

Do you want a driver’s license? What’s your ‘social credit score?’ Spend too much time online gaming? Sorry, no car for you. Do you want a job? Seems your social credit score is too low, sorry. Do you want to participate in local elections? Let’s check your score. With businesses, they are regulating their tax rate, so expect that to end up with individuals as well. You’ve spent 5 hours in the last week on SDMB? Your taxes go up by 1%. You commented that you thought that President Xi should have a term limit? Taxes go up by 20%. The final outcome is that it turns into self-censorship because the credit score is so vague you have no idea what’s going to happen to you, so you stay incredibly within the lines.

In the US? I think that if it were just announced that this was happening, there would be blood in the streets. Could it eventually creep in? Maybe. If you had told me in the 1980s that we’d be voluntarily turning over most of our personal information, our location, our civic memberships and our purchasing history to big corporations I would have called you an irrational alarmist, yet here we are.

Yeah, there is no equivalent to this in the US or in the west, as far as I know. What you post on this board has zero impact on your ability to get a loan or buy a house…or get a specific job. And what your friends or relatives post has nothing to do with it either. But it goes deeper. What you buy is tracked in China and impacts your score. Buy a knock off (defined by who know’s who and based on who knows what) negatively affects your score. Buy something ‘cheap’ (same) negatively affects your score. Belong to the wrong group, and that negatively affects your score. And, since the system isn’t exactly transparent, piss someone off who has access to the system, well that’s probably going to negatively affect your score too.

[septimus]

@Horatius

Part of problem with China is that corruption is widespread, and well-known, leading to a low-trust situation. How to turn that around is a serious problem, it’s much easier to lose trust than to build it.

The problem with this scheme is, if your system is already corrupt, how can you trust that the system they’re building to monitor corruption is trustworthy? Well, you can’t, can you? Thus the problem.

Corruption is not an off/on switch. Fighting corruption is often a top priority even in — or rather, especially in — countries with high corruption. The central government of China certainly does intend this as a way to fight some corruption (and I assume they’re smart enough to devise audits to try to combat possible corrupt trojans installed by the programmers.) Transparency and accountability — which such systems provide — can counter corruption.

Disclaimers: I’ve not “looked into the soul” of President Xi. I do live in a country rated as more corrupt than China, so my appreciation of corruption’s mechanisms is not just abstract.

[XT]

@septimus

Corruption is not an off/on switch. Fighting corruption is often a top priority even in — or rather, especially in — countries with high corruption. The central government of China certainly does intend this as a way to fight some corruption (and I assume they’re smart enough to devise audits to try to combat possible corrupt trojans installed by the programmers.) Transparency and accountability — which such systems provide — can counter corruption.

Disclaimers: I’ve not “looked into the soul” of President Xi. I do live in a country rated as more corrupt than China, so my appreciation of corruption’s mechanisms is not just abstract.

Xi’s anti-corruption campaign has very little to do with actual corruption and more to do with a means of attacking Xi and his factions enemies and taking down their power structures.

What country do you live in that is more corrupt than China? :eek:

[senoy]

@XT

Xi’s anti-corruption campaign has very little to do with actual corruption and more to do with a means of attacking Xi and his factions enemies and taking down their power structures.

What country do you live in that is more corrupt than China? :eek:

Tons of countries are more corrupt than China. China really isn’t that corrupt on the global scale. What makes them special is that they are a very wealthy relatively stable country that is horribly corrupt. Generally speaking, wealth and stability correlate with less corruption, but China doesn’t hold to such things.