Social liberalism vs. economic conservatism

I’ve been meaning to ask this for a long time, and now is as good a time as any.

Everytime the subject of a third-party movement in the U.S. comes up, I see posters say things like

When you combine social liberalism with conservative economics, what happens to programs like Social Security, Medicaid, food stamps, Obamacare and the like?

Sure, cutting those programs will take a LOT of money out of federal spending (SS and various healthcare programs combined account for more than 50% of federal spending.)

But eliminating them would severely affect a huge portion of the population.

Roughly 60 million people receive food stamps
46 million on food stamps
70 million on Medicaid and children’s health programs
Obamacare subsidies are at$10 billion per year and rising.

Clearly, social liberalism comes with a price tag.

Where do you come down when push comes to shove? How much are you wilingl to spend to maintain a liberal “safety net”?

Well, it depends on your definition of economic conservatism. Currently - in practice - it means keeping the current budget as low as possible even if it means deficit or off-books spending.

In my - and I’d like a pony - definition it means figuring out what you want to do and taxing sufficient to pay for it.

Fiscal conservatism should not mean just not spending. It should mean paying for what you want. If that means higher taxes then it does. If it means lower services then it does. If it means somewhere in the middle then it does.

Or as Larry Gonick - of The Cartoon History of the Universe - once wrote (about Caesar’s orders to his governors) “Keep 'em quiet and don’t break the bank doing it”.

As much as is necessary to ensure a stable society.

Speaking only for myself, I believe that government exists to provide what people cannot reasonably provide for themselves. But we should also be continually attempting to empower people so that they can provide more for themselves, thus reducing their dependence on government support to begin with.

Provide safety nets, sure. But also provide vocational education, money management education, and job placement services to get people off of the subsidies. Cut the budget from other places to provide for this education if you can, tax and spend if you must. But have a plan to get people off of the subsidies, and implement it. Then reduce the size of the safety net and the associated education programs.

For me, I’m less interested in the absolute size of government spending itself. I’m far more interested in:

-Government spending per capita declining over time (on an inflation-adjusted basis)
-Balanced budgets

My bad. That should have read 60 million on Social Security, 46 million on food stamps.:o

I feel a financially workable solution would piss off practically everybody, across the political spectrum, cutting a wide swath thru interest groups and accepted truths. Any administration proposing it would be turned out in the next election. Any administration attempting to implement it would brought down sooner, possibly by force.

It really depends on exactly what you mean by some of these terms. Some forms of social liberalism are free (or nearly so). It costs us nearly nothing to establish marriage equality, legalize marijuana, adjust policies to remove systemic prejudices, etc. Other forms, such as healthcare, wellfare, foodstamps, social security, college educations, have price tags, sometimes very high ones.

Similarly, fiscal conservatism, as I see it, is more of an approach to how one spends rather than how much. I look at it just how like I’d budget my own finances. Some things are really expensive some things are really important. Very few people are going to argue that cheap important things should be bought or that expensive unimportant things shouldn’t (though some might argue which ones are or aren’t important), but how do we prioritize in the less obvious situations? I see someone who is fiscally conservative as being the guy who is a penny pincher, they’re only willing to go into debt for something critical (like a house or car) and even then, they might get a beater car rather than something they want more. Very few people that isn’t living on their rich parent’s dime looks at credit cards as free money.

Very few people are going to describe themselves as not fiscally conservative. Everyone realizes that money has to come from somewhere. The real problem is that not everyone can actually agree on what government programs are necessary or important and worth potentially going into debt for (or, as it really is, going farther into debt for) and which ones can be cut. Pretty much everyone who says they are socially liberal and fiscally conservative will have a different idea of how to approach these problems, and as such, it’s pretty much a meaningless descriptor.

The problem is, unlike our everyday lives, we treat government debt with a lot less concern. I may spend frivilously, but eventually that WILL come back to me, often pretty darn quick when I can’t make my rent or my credit card bill or can’t get that sweet new car or whatever I really want. When our government does it, it can take decades or generations before we really start to see the effects of that debt piling up, and that cost is spread across everyone, so it’s ultimately less painful too. So, even people who are more risk averse and conservative in their spending in their daily lives are probably at least a little less risk averse when it comes to government spending.

So, this is, in my opinion, exactly why, as much as I would love to see a third party rise (and I, in fact, have been strongly supporting one), I just don’t see it happening as long as we continue to look at issues this way. We’re always going to see those willing to spend more as fiscally irresponsible, even if it’s motivated by a great deal of compassion for wanting to help people, and those who don’t want the government doing certain things as uncompassionate, even if it’s motivated by a fiscal concern for things that are even more important. So, instead, we end up with two parties each painting the other as that other extreme version. Frankly, I don’t think it’s compatible because it’s asking the wrong questions.

I see fiscal conservatism as being a pragmatic matter of realizing that you can’t run a deficit forever, and thus that budgets are inherently limited, and as such, we must make mature choices as to how we spend our money.

It’s also about taking a step back, and looking at some of our underlying assumptions. For example:

This right here is the classic answer to what is socially liberal, and fiscally conservative all in one. It not only costs nothing to legalize marijuana, it will also increase revenue via taxation of marijuana sales, while simultaneously reducing our expenditures in other ares such as policing, court costs, and prison costs.

In other areas, it’s a question of how efficiently we spend money. For example:

Healthcare in the US is already hugely expensive. Both individual people and businesses are spending huge amounts of money on private insurance systems. This produces a complex mosaic of insurance providers who all duplicate efforts (increasing overall system costs). Negotiating the ins and outs of this system also drives up costs for the healthcare providers, who need staff to figure out who to bill for what. As well, the insurance companies are largely profit driven businesses, and as such take a certain percentage out of the system as profits. A single-payer system would likely decrease overall system costs by eliminating these problems. Taxes would have to go up to provide funds for such a system, but these taxes would likely be less than what people are currently paying for their private insurance, and so would be a net benefit to the people involved. It would also produce a huge increase in personal security, as your healthcare would no longer be tied to your state of employment - periods of un- or under-employment would no longer effectively deny you health coverage.

I agree. A lot of people forget that when John Kennedy was President one of the centerpieces of his administration was a major tax cut. And conservatives, led by Barry Goldwater, opposed the tax cuts as fiscally irresponsible.

But that isn’t what we have now, Little Nemo. We’ve got parties defined - rightly or wrongly - as ‘tax and spend’ and ‘fiscally responsible’. Personally, I’d prefer ‘tax and spend’ to ‘no tax and still spend’ which is what it’s grown to be. Even when elected, conservatism has proven itself bankrupt (ha!) because it avoids the hard choices about cutting spending instead favoring a pattern of behavior that is actively damaging to the country as a whole. It’s economics as religion rather than as data-driven science.

It may cost the country nothing and even perhaps bring in money. But that cost savings comes on the backs of people - police unions, lawyers and the prison industry - who have significant lobbying budgets that prevent such from being implemented until the national consensus is such that it’s unstoppable.

Any industry making a profit eventually comes to believe it’s their God-given - and constitutionally protected - right to continue making that profit. They will fight back with all possible means - propaganda, lobbying, what-have-you - to keep the good times rolling. The effect on that nation as a whole isn’t even secondary…it’s tertiary or worse.

This is, of course, true, and you also see it in the healthcare example: Insurance companies will do whatever it takes to maintain the existing for-profit system, since they’re making billions in profit.

Of course, that’s not a reason to not do it; it will just make it stupidly hard. Cite: the last 20 years of healthcare debates in the US.

I’m repeating the obvious over and over, but … we are here to stamp out ignorance. :rolleyes:

If “fiscally responsible” means seeking to balance the budget or at least reduce the deficit, the irresponsible party is clearly the GOP. Reagan and GWB were the biggest deficit spenders ever. GOP Congressmen consistently vote against all taxes, while keeping spending high. (Yes, they’ve stripped discretionary welfare programs, and inexpensive regulators to the bone, but continue to pour money into the military.) Indeed deficits serve their agenda.

YouTube-level commentators argue that Obama is the biggest deficit spender. This ignores the financial crisis he inherited which was fought vigorously with massive bipartisan stimulus.

Just as “libertarian” has been adopted by many YouTube-level thinkers to mean “I like to smoke pot,” so “economic (or fiscal) conservative,” to many just means “I don’t like to pay taxes.” :smiley: A big goal of those who call themselves “economic conservatives” is often deregulation. Deficit reduction? Not so much.

Social liberalism doesn’t necessarily imply a welfare state. This mindset describes a lot of third wayers, libertarians, and establishment figures from both major parties. The CEOs of corporations don’t tend to be socially conservative. They’re well educated and have the proper PC opinions about inclusiveness and plurality and all that. This philosophy is held by the populace who believe in a sort of tech oriented Silicon Valley “brocialist” doctrine, as exemplified by the Reddit userbase for example.

Where the contradictions come into relief is when it tries to grapple with redressing historical economic grievances or class issues. Then it’s hardly distinguishable from standard conservative rhetoric.

Social liberalism does not equal libertarianism to me, or else I think that people who say they want “the left’s social liberalism but with more conservative economic policy” would have already embraced libertarianism.

I agree. “Tax and spend” is a better fiscal policy than “borrow and spend”. The Democrats (who want big government) are more fiscally responsible then the Republicans (who want big government and tax cuts).

The problem with embracing libertarianism is all the wackos who take it way too far.

Indeed. The reason that people on the left embrace “social liberalism” is the same reason they embrace paying more governmental problems that address inequality (whether race, gender, or income) - they believe that the current laws are unfair. So, for these folks, marijuana should be legal because criminalizing marijuana is unfair to minorities and the poor, especially since it seemingly causes less harm than say, alcohol, which people who are more socially privileged also enjoy.

This is very different than why libertarians believe marijuana should be legal - because they believe that freedom of the individual is the ultimate goal.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people who believe in socially liberal things due to their beliefs about fairness rather than their beliefs in freedom of the individual.

Social liberalism, as an academic or political term, was coined in contrast with classical liberalism, which is very much in line with libertarian thought. The classical liberals were concerned with economic and political liberty, and favored limited governments with minimal restraint on the movement of capital. Most importantly for any comparison with social liberals, classical liberals, with Hobbes, rejected the notion of Man as a social animal, holding that our natural state is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” Government should therefore adhere to its natural function of keeping men from each other’s throats.

Social liberals embrace the concept of a just society as an achievable and desirable good, and are therefore more concerned with balancing social welfare with individual liberty, and favor government involvement in maintaining that balance. Thus, persecuted minorities should be protected, civil rights should be equally allotted, and tax money should be spent to alleviate (or prevent) suffering.

Due to all the negative stigma directed at things like welfare or government programs, many people are wildly misinformed about these programs.

Lots of people on medicare think they are just ‘getting their own money back’. Nope, the average person gets 3 times more money out of medicare than they paid into it with taxes.

I can’t find the poll, but a lot of people who get government assistance do not think they do. A large % of seniors (who get huge amounts of government assistance from medicare, medicaid and social security) do not think they benefit from any government program.

These things are important because the average citizen has no idea what government money funds. They think government support is something only lazy, inferior people get and they cannot rectify this with their own egos.

When they find out it means cutting education, health care, pensions for the elderly, defense, etc. they change their minds.

Even the tea party had some polls out showing they were opposed to cuts in medicare, medicaid and social security.

But the bulk of government spending comes down to 4 things. Health care, pensions, education, defense (military, police, etc). Unless you are willing to cut those, you can’t cut spending.

It seems to me that unfairness to minorities and the poor is more supporting evidence for repealing anti-drug laws than the main reason in itself. At least, it is to me, and I consider myself more as a liberal than a libertarian. It seems to me that liberals also believe that freedom of the individual, when it does not interfere with others, is a goal. There are no downsides to the freedom that comes with legal weed, so therefore liberals support it. Whereas there are downsides to a lack of regulation in many other areas.

Maybe for some liberals there is a focus on freedom for the individual when it is felt it doesn’t harm or interfere with others - but then again that’s similar to what libertarians or even some conservatives say. The difference is where the line is drawn as to what constitutes harm or interference with others.

I would argue that liberals who trend more communitarian are only interested in freedom of the individual to a point. There has been lots of discussion especially lately about individual action not being seen as existing in a vacuum, but realized for its effect on other people, regardless of whether or not one thinks it has harm / interference on others.

To illustrate both points, I’d point to the dreaded conservative buzzword: political correctness. It touches on lines of harm / interference with others, somewhat, but its more (and at this point the discussion can become something of degrees) because of a communitarian impulse that liberals tend to want to embrace (though in these cases the language comes from both ideals - the un-PC language ‘harms’ the minority listener and it makes the minority listener feel ‘unwelcome’ & thus is unfair).