Social Security Privatization, # Whatever: what's the downside

As with most people and most issues, I tend to pay most attention to issues that affect me directly (not a pretty trait, but a human one) so I’m much more aware of Social Security privatization now than in times past.

Please indulge me a personal anecdote:

My father’s first “tax paying” job (he’d worked for cash before then) was as a private in the final months of and 18 months following WW2. From 1947 til his death in 1982 he worked non-stop at jobs ranging from minimum wage to, for most of the last decade of his life, significantly above the average income of the time/place (upper middle class would be fair). When he died I had just turned 15, my brother was 3 months from 21 and my sister was over 21.
My brother, a full time college student then, drew Social Security on our father’s account for 3 months, then he was ineligible. I drew Social Security until the last month I was 17 (since my birthday’s on the 1st I was ineligible for that last check) because even though I was a full-time college student at the time the laws had changed (Reagan era) and eligibility ended at 18. My mother drew a smaller check on my behalf until the last month I was 15 (again, because my b’day is on the 1st I wasn’t eligible for the final check), though prior to Reagan’s adjustments she’d have drawn one til I was 18. (This isn’t to bash Reagan but just to explain.) All totaled, my father paid Social Security for 35 years (most of it at or above average income for professionals) his account disbursed checks for about 49 months [not quite 3 years for me, 3 months for my brother, 10 months for my mother]).

My mother began working at Soc. Security paying jobs in 1952 and save for 3 non-consecutive years of un (or under)employment continued paying until her retirement. She began drawing Social Security month after her 65th birthday (Oct 2000). At the time she was still working full-time (at a job that paid well above average for professionals and, I may be wrong but I believe, her employer continued deducting Social Security until she retired) so her working status along with her age (65 rather than 70) meant she did not draw full amount. When she did retire a few months after she turned 69 she began drawing the full amount she was then eligible for (which I think was slightly less than she’d have drawn had she wanted until her 70th birthday, but not a lot less).

Okay, so all totalled my mother (the only person ever to draw SS on her account, and she used her account rather than my father’s as by the time she was 65 her account was able to make larger payments than his) paid Social Security for about 50 years, drew partial SS for slightly over four years (about 50 months) and {mostly full} Social for about 18 months after that. (Thank God she started drawing when she was 65 as it allowed her build up a very nice nest-egg over that 4 years and otherwise it would have been gone.)

Okay, also about my mother: in 1989 she was 54, absolutely broke (no savings and only enough to cover the essentials in checking) and thousands of dollars in debt. That’s the year she opened an IRA through her last employers. By making the highest payments possible to her employer 402c {I believe that’s correct- it’s the non-profit equivalent of a 401k} and courtesy of employer contributions she was able to build up a fairly substantial amount. She began drawing full retirement 15 years later at 69, drew retirement for about 18 months, and then she died.

Between them my parents paid Social Security for more than 85 years. Admittedly that began when they had salaries around $1800 per year, but then that was also well over 50 years during which interest would have accumulated. Of that 85 years since they both died relatively young (my father was mid 50s, my mother died a month before she turned 71) they drew Social Security payments on the two accounts for less than 10 years, and that’s counting the partial payments on my father’s account and the first four years at “not full” Social on my mother’s.

Had my father had no children and since his widow drew Social on her own account, his 35 years of payments would have totally vanished. Had my mother died in summer 2000 (when in fact she spent a summer in ICU and was expected to, her account would have totally vanished. Her private account not only did not vanish when she died, but the significant unused balance reverted to her estate, almost $50,000 even after the tax penalties for one-time-payment were paid (this week).
With all “I’d rather have her alive than have the money” sincere disclaimers in place, I don’t mind telling you that the $50k from her retirement account came as a very pleasant and unexpected surprise.

(This is not a gay marriage rant but money related): I am gay. If I were to settle with a domestic partner and that partner was a neurosurgeon with an astronomically higher income than mine and we were to remain together until retirement age and for it all he was by far the higher paid, I would not benefit in the least from his SS because the Federal government does not recognize same-sex marriage. Supposing he has no children and dies one month before he would have begun drawing benefits, then the considerable amount he paid in to SS would be gone. Likewise if I were to become a multimillionaire through copyrights and investments and settled down with a partner in significantly lesser financial circumstances, OR if I were to never have a marital type relationship at all, my money paid into the system is gone.

If Social Security were privatized, then in the situations above my father would left a significant amount of money. (In fact, due to unexpected expenses and admittedly poor financial planning he died broke and deeply in debt and that’s why my mother’s finances were terrible for almost a decade; a significant amount of cash in 1982 [if my father had an IRA] would have been life changing, would have made my mother’s life INCOMPARABLY better and would have allowed me to finish college years earlier, begun grad school and become self-supporting a decade earlier and I’d be in a much better financial situation today.
Likewise, in the hypothetical same-sex unions mentioned above, if IRAs were allowed to replace SS the same-sex partners would inherit a nice cash sum or a nice pension without displacing any other assets. (True, the partner could have an additional insurance policy or an additional IRA, but then he’d still be out the money paid to SS.)

So, am I correct in saying that from my examples above private rather than public Social Security would be far better as a solution in many situations than federal SS? This isn’t rhetorical- if it’s not true then I’d like to know as I’d like to have an informed opinion on this issue. (Assume that a privatized SS would carry with it a near impossibility to take out funds before you are retirement age or disabled as this is one of the few times I’d support the government protecting citizens from themselves; that most citizens do not understand complicated money matters [and I include myself] and would not reinvest the amount is the main downside I see to privatization].)

Let me ask you this: if you purchase term life insurance, and don’t die, is your money wasted?

It’s basically insurance, and some people win and some people don’t. My father and father-in-law are both 90, and still drawing Social Security, so they both have won. The system (like any defined benefits plan) is biased for people who live long enough to get the benefit. The money paid in is not gone, it goes to others who live longer. Social Security has never been a bank account, but rather an insurance premium. The money you pay into term is not gone, but goes to someone who did die.

IRAs are great things. Some people can’t afford them , and some might not use them to the best benefit. If your father had owned an IRA, mightn’t he have taken from it when he needed the money? If someone wants to provide for children after they die, that is what life insurance is for.

As for your mother’s IRA, I assure you that $50K is precious little to live on. If she had lived 20 years more, and my condolences that she did not, you might feel a lot differently about Social Security.

The immediate problem with privatization is that current payments mostly go to funding current outgo. Diverting them into private accounts would leave a big gap for those retired today.

But I can’t dispute your point that some people don’t get out of SS what they put in. That’s true, and that’s how the system was designed.

We’ve been doing detailed retirement planning lately. We invested (in IRAs) under the assumption that Social Security payments would be trivial and we’d have to fund our retirement on our own. When we actually did the numbers, this turned out to be false. and social security will make our retirement much, much better. (Not that it would have been bad to begin with.)

In your parent’s situation, a privatized retirement account would have been better.

But:
-My mother had a friend whose father died when the friend was very young.(The father was also relatively young). At that time, SS paid benefits for children up to 18, and the spouse until the last child was 18. By the time the last child ( I think there were 3) was 18, the mother was able to collect onthe father’s SS account as a widow.

- My grandfather stopped working and started collecting SS due to a disability when he was about sixty. He died at 89. He would never have been able to finance 29 years of retirement. 

 - My father had to retire due to disability when he was about 53. He's now been retired 15 years.Could have another 20 years left. My parents wouldn't have been able to finance 10 years of retirement on their own- they barely were able to support us when we were kids. If SS tax wasn't deducted, they wouldn't have saved it- they would have fed us better.

In all three cases, the benefits paid out far exceeded what was paid in. And in order for SS to pay some people more than they paid in, other people have to receive less than they paid in. It’s not an investment - it’s more like insurance.

 BTW, 

This situation ( of the money being gone) isn’t restricted to gay or even unmarried couples. Since my husband and I make the roughly the same amount of money and are close in age, if I die before collecting benefits, the money I paid in will be gone too. His full benefit will be more than half of mine.

Privatized social security was first tried in Chile, starting in around 1984 (I’m going from memory so could be off by a year or so.) The idea was that there were licensed private social security funds (usually a joint venture between an investment bank and an insurance company) that had to meet certain standards to be licensed. It’s worked fairly well, especially for younger people, although it depends on when you retire – pick a date when the market is down, and your benefit will be lower.

Voyager says:

[quote}The immediate problem with privatization is that current payments mostly go to funding current outgo. Diverting them into private accounts would leave a big gap for those retired today.[/quote]
I agree: the current system, each generation pays for the prior generation. Under a privatized system, each generation pays for itself. To transition from one system to the other, one generation gets screwed (either not receiving benefits, or paying double taxes.)

Chile made the transition because (a) the prior system was totally bankrupt, and (b) the military dictatorship just commandeered the tax money.

The system has been copied by countries like Poland, Hungary, etc. … all countries where the prior system (e.g., Communism) was bankrupt anyway.

One small difference, life insurance is optional while Social Security is mandatory.

The name for what the OP is proposing is “mission creep.”

The dollars in the Social Security system are adequate to provide participants with a modest income in their advanced years, although that’s debated, of course.

By making the accounts individual accounts, we’re asking more of the same money: to fund a modest income for participants in their advanced years, and leave something to their descendants if it turns out they don’t need it.

Think it adds up? Of course not. One reason it works now is that not everyone will live very long after retirement, or even until retirement. Their payments help fund the benefits of those who live until 95. It all evens out.

Is that unfair? In retrospect, surely. But that’s the breaks. Did the OP’s parents know that they were going to die relatively early in their retirement? Presumably not. They could have easily ‘come out ahead’ instead of behind. But this is how you fund a passable retirement income for everybody who makes it to an advanced age, without asking any one person to put in an overwhelming amount upfront.

Sure, it’s mandatory, and that can be regarded by the more libertarian-minded as unfair. But if we turned to individual accounts which proved to be insufficient, we’d wind up with a lot of old people in poverty, and we’d just tax everybody some more to do something about that, rather than just let old people live in poverty. Sure, maybe they should have saved more on top of Social Security, but there’s not much you can do about that when you’re already old.

If you want a society where there’s some basic floor of support for old people when they’re no longer in shape to earn their own way, Social Security is about as fair and inexpensive a system as you’re likely to come up with. If you don’t want such a society, then we’ve got to agree to disagree, because I do.

Actually it’s worked extremely well, if you take into account where Chile was when they started and where they are now. And also the effect on the overall economy. Uhm…and if you pick a date when the market is up, your benefit will be higher. Why focus on the negatives exclusively?

IIRC, Chile now has the strongest economy in South America. Coincidence?

The link below will take you to a collection of readable posts in support of SS reform:

http://www.socialsecuritychoice.com/

Life insurance protects your interests if you do not live long enough to provide for the financial security of your dependents.

Annuities protects you in case you outlive your savings.

Social Security provides you with income in case you outlive your savings and provides your dependents with income in case you do not live long enough to provide for them. It is highly progressive; on average, people who had low lifetime incomes (or their dependents (it turns out that people with low incomes also have high mortality rates)) get much more money out than they put in; on average, people who max out their social security every year get back little more than they put in (even when you count the fact that they tend to live longer). So social security is a hybrid of social redistribution and social insurance.

Privatization basically turns the whole social security system into a 401K.
On average, your returns are going to outperform the returns in the social security fund but some people will do well and others will not. Poor people will have even less in retirement and the wealthy will have even more. Privitization creates huge liquidity issues for the social security fund. While Social security privitization was sold as some sort of remedy to the potential social security crisis, it will only serve to practiacally guarantee that we have a crisis and it will serve to accelerate that crisis by decades.

There are more logical solutions to our problems when we don’t spend all or time trying to figure out how to find a solution that is going to help our wealthy campaign donors.

The Bush plan to privatize Social Security:

  1. Would not have affected the projected shortfall of SS tax receipts or had any net effect on the overall solvency of the system.

  2. Was never anything but a scheme to funnel tax money to Wall Street.

Sounds great in principle.

Now, imagine: swept away by the concept, Congress endorses the privatization plan. And SSA funds are transferred to an investment company with strong energy-sector investments and what appears to be a brilliant record, and ties to the Administration.

Enron.

Then make it auto insurance.

Excellent points. In fact, the wealthy don’t need social security, since most of their income is coming from other sources. They also pay a relatively smaller percentage of their income into the fund. Yet some seem to think that even the bit the less well to do get is offensive.

If privatization happens (very unlikely) and someone brings up the number of people who are getting less than they would from social security, I’m sure we’d hear that it is all their fault, and that society can’t be expected to take care of people who don’t invest wisely.

Based on projections that the SS office sends me…

I pay twice as much to Old age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (6.2%) as I do in my current 401K (3%), but the projected benefit is double for the 401K.

If the same money that SS pulls from me were put into my Credit Union (guaranteed 4.83% APY), I would do remarkably better.

Also, my projected retirement age from my personal accounts is 55, 15 years earlier that I qualify for full SS benefits.

The downside is that macroeconomically, you can’t have the economic explosion that would be necessary to justify the creation of the extra wealth without allowing people the freedom to fail.

Any program that is sufficiently restricted to the point that you are not allowed to take very risky investments will handicap returns to the point that the money lost to private management will not justify the returns.

If people want to give retirees the freedom to fail or succeed with private investments they should be honest about it, but while it might entail more well-off retirees on average given a decent economy, it would have more tales of absolute poverty caused not only by poor planning and financial luck but also by simple bad medical or social luck.

What everyone is missing is that Social Security is not, as originally proposed, a pseudo-retirement investment program.

It’s two things: (a) a tax on wage-earners, and (b) a mode of providing for superannuated workers and those in need. This has become obfuscated through the whole idea of somebody needing adequate quarters from their own or someone else’s account to qualify – for retirement, for disability, or for support as a widow or orphan.

If it were taken back to what it was supposed to be – a means of providing the low-income elderly and legitimately unemployable with a small stable income – and not “X% of my planned retirement income” from someone who may be getting $45,000 from pensions or investments without it, it would probably be more than adequate to do the job it was designed to do – to provide social security to those who would otherwise be abandoned by society and insecure in their ability to pay bills due to incapacity to support themselves.

IMO SS is a scam. I do not like that the Federal Govt has this power. I would love to opt out of the SS program. Why can’t we have a choice? How about a local or state run retirement program? Why not let me divert 50% of my SS plan as I choose? Why not let me set my benefit age and draw a smaller percentage accordingly?

Because it would take power away from the politicians and fed govt.

As I noted, my credit union savings account provides higher returns than SS. How much less risky can you get than a credit union.

Am I “everyone”? I didn’t address the wealth redistribution portion of SS because it doesn’t impact my point: namely, that you can’t magically get something for nothing without risk, which, I did fail to add, the program was not set up to do.

If we changed to a fully open mandatory investment system, even if there were almost no frictional losses to investment corporations, we’d still have cases of people like I mentioned who lost their entire SS either due to poor decisions or bad luck or both.

The way expectations run in this nation our public social services would no doubt be increased to cope with this.

I’d prefer the current SS system to:
– A wide open mandatory investment system that has no corresponding increase in social services spending, since that would be too heartless (private services never take up the slack.)
– A wide open mandatory investment system that does have an increase in social services, since we wouldn’t gain anything on a net basis, especially since the increase in wealth disparity would tend to counteract any macroeconomic benefits from increased investment.
– A regulated mandatory investment system that makes sure you are not undergoing too much risk, since the slight added benefit of not being entirely under government supervision would be entirely or more than entirely eaten up by investment expenses.

Now, w/r/t the dual use of SS as middle-class retirement and a poor and disabled safety net, I do think it’s misleading. When people point out the supposed inefficiencies of the system they fail to take into account its wealth redistribution goals, which would have to be axed in a transition to privatization, or at least segregated from the program so it would look like the privatized program is more “efficient”.

If the life insurance costs 15% of your pay, is mandatory to purchase, and there’s very little chance of you seeing your money back with any return greater than 0% even if you live long enough to collect from it?

Yes, it’s very wasted.

Social security is a massive waste on an epic scale. If the money was invested and compounded instead of being paid out to current retirees immediately then everyone in the program would be sitting on millions of dollars upon retirement. There would also be plenty of money to pay out the disability bennies along the way.

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