Socialist USA - Why do people support?

The BBQ Pit
41

Forgive me, but I find claims like this hard to believe. I’ve seen these Tax Freedom Day studies from places like the Fraser Institute and they never make much of any sense to me. Usually it’s claimed that we “work half the year for the government”, but I’ve never come close to this.

I live in Socialist Canada (I’m sure, by your terms), fer Pete’s sake and I’m looking back through my tax records and this doesn’t begin to come close to what I pay.

Let’s look at this year. I didn’t make a ton of money, but I was comfortable.
My federal & provincial tax was 10.3% of my income together.
Sales tax is tricky, but let’s assume I spent 50% of my income on taxable items (mortgage payments not being subject to tax. As well, other tax reduction strategies like RRSP (think 401k) come into play here in reducing the amount that I spent on taxable items). At 7% federal, that’s 3.5% of my income.
Property tax… well I could not own or own a cheaper place, but it still wasn’t bad, at 3.5% as well.
Health care premium: ~2%

That’s all the things you brought up, and it totals up to a little over 19%.

Going back the previous year, where I made not quite twice as much as I did this year, and it’s ~26% of my total.

When I lived in Saskatchewan, which has approximately 3 times the provincial tax rate of Alberta and a 15% combined sales tax, it still probably topped out at 30%. What am I missing?

42

** Read Icculus**~~

You mentioned that we “all know which programs” allegedly “steal”.

This suggests that you presuppose that we all agree with the basic premise that you put forth.
Please state clearly what these programs are called.

43

If you’re paying more than 50% of your income in taxes, then you do your taxes very poorly. I recommend that you see someone at H&R Block about that, or buy a tax program for your computer. You can likely save thousands. I hope this advice is helpful.

With an income of $31,000 and change, assuming that you don’t have any children, your Federal taxes should have dropped by several hundred dollars since 2001. If you have children, your Federal taxes should be approaching zero. Has your charitable giving increased by the same amount that you’ve had your taxes cut? Or is this just more idle talk about “the grass is always greener where the taxes are lower?”

There is no law that could possibly justify this act. Taxes are lawfully part of the Constitution and the laws of this country, and are continually being affirmed by a body of elected represenatives of the people. Moreover, taxes are not extracted by physical coersion. Yes, there is punishment that could be meted out if one continually refuses to pay taxes, but only after the due process of law. If you can’t see the difference between taxation and a mugging, I’m not sure how anyone could explain it to you.

44

I use TurboTax every year. If one is a high income earner in CA without children - the AMT combined with high state and property taxes drive the ratio very high. As income taxes are not indexed for cost of living, those of us who live in major coastal metro areas with high tax rates do pay @ 50%.

45

Since when does democracy validate anything? It certainly may not be coersion, but because a majority supported it, it doesn’t make it morally right.

46

All right, let’s take this a little further:

Do you use public streets? Libraries? Do you expect help from the local police/fire department/mail service?

47

I have lived in the UK, Australia, and visited the US, Russia, and Siberia.

The US is the most market oriented of all these countries and has the least amount of ‘socialist’ tendencies. But I’m sorry to say that the worst poverty I have ever seen was in the US. I was appalled at the number of homeless people begging on the streets of cities in what is supposed to be the world’s wealthiest nation.

If that is what unfettered capitalism has to offer I will take the compromise approach of the UK and Australia any day.

48

I hear this all the time from people. It therefore surprises me that in countries that have no social welfare, the poor are not been looked after by the benevolence of private citizens, and living in better conditions than the poor in countries with social welfare.

Maybe it is just everyone else who won’t give more money, unlike you…

And on $31K a year (net or gross?) I would guess (and it is a WAG) that you are a net consumer of government services, once defense, law & order, and public health programs that prevent you coming down with TB are factored in. But I notice you not complaining about those programs.

49

Property itself can engender coercion. If I own everything which you rely on for your continued existence, such that you have to beg me for the chance to work for me so that you may eat some of the food grow on “my” land, are you not my slave?

Capitalism, unchecked, can be as tyrannical and coercive as any authoritarian government. Democracy is the least worst checking mechanism.

50

As for use of government expenditure, that oh-so-involuntary redistributive mechanism called taxation ensures that people don’t redistribute your property themselves. Put simply, the taxes of the rich pays for the system by which they stay rich. In fact, I’d say they got extremely good value from their taxes, which are a lot cheaper than hiring a private army to protect what is “theirs”.

51

Why should I pay taxes that go toward maintaining a public fire and rescue service? My house is not currently on fire.

52

Pardon me, Reed. I lived in New York State from 1948 to 1998 – 50 years. I paid federal and state taxes for all but one year between 1967 and 1998.

If no one but you is entitled to the fruits of your labor, then that must apply to me as well.

Would you kindly remit my share of the cost of your education, figured under GAAP?

If you live in NYC, I’ll take my fair share of twice the amount of subway fares you paid, since that was subsidized by state taxes to an “affordable” rate that only covered about a third of its cost.

Do you operate a vehicle on the public highways? Even when I didn’t, I paid taxes that kept NYS DOT, and county and city DPW crews, repaving and maintaining highways for your use.

Have you drunk any tap water within the state during your lifetime? Are you still alive? I want my fair share of the money I paid so that DOH could make sure it was potable.

Did you go to playgrounds, parks, or public beaches as a child? Fork it over; OPRHP has never been a volunteer agency.

Oh, yeah, school lunches! I’ll bet you got them! Their cost was subsidized.

What fire district do you live in? Betcha they got state money to upgrade their equipment. Let’s throw that in the pot too.

Now, when you’ve paid up all this stuff, you can do your Libertarian song and dance, and I’ll listen. Until then, you’ve taken and never even made an offer to give any of it back, and are now bitching that you have to give to help others.

Hypocrite.

53

Probably the best argument AGAINST communism I have heard.

Democracy is not a checking mechanism. Division of power is a checking mechanism. Our government works because of the checks and balances between the various branches, not because 250 million TV watching morons pick Choice A or Choice B every 4 years.

54

Agreed. And against unchecked capitalism.

In the sense of checking outright plutocracy, it is one possible mechanism of many.

55

So you are saying you wouldn’t help someone voluntarily that needed it. Thanks for clarifying.

56

You and I have two very different ideas on what “unchecked capitalism” means. To me, unchecked capitalism is the freedom to buy and sell products and service without restraint. It does not include favoritism, collision, bribery, cartels, market manipulation and other activities that restrict the market. I believe these activities are what you are refering to when you say “unchecked capitalism”. The role of government in a truly capitalist society is to prevent these activities that restrict the market and limit competition.

57

At $31,000 a year, your taxes weren’t going to foodstamps. You didn’t even cover your per capita consumption for the military.

58

To me, that is the freedom to economically coerce the poor into near slavery.

59

The OP stated it right on target for me. I, however, have to ask this.

You said:

Fair redistribution of income? What the hell is that all about?

If I make (for example) $5 million a year, how the hell does ANYONE justify that income should be “fairly redistributed”? It was already fairly distributed in the first place; I earned it. For someone else to say, “No, no, no, we have to take your hard-earned money away from you and give it to someone else who doesn’t make as much as you.” is the absolute height of arrogance on their part.

It is theft, and shame on us as a society for implementing government regulations that allow the government to steal from us willy-nilly. And people wonder why fiscally conservative folks like me want those regulations removed.

Aaarrggghhh…

60

No, you accrued it, perhaps by economically coercing those with far less bargaining power than you into working for you so that they did not starve.

Property itself can be theft, if taken to such anarcho-capitalist extremes.