Is it that hard to believe that human beings need to earn respect?
Ouch, touche!
But I thionk your extreme response is also wrong; it’s not unconditional love and trust mixed with passivity that gets you killed, nor is it fuck everyone who looks and acts differently from me.
I am certain there is a middle path between Christ and Strom, and I believe it was taught by Sean Connery in The Untouchables.
If I am met by respect, I’ll give respect. If people fuck with me, I’ll give it back to them.
I don’t understand why Strom’s death SHOULD change anyone’s feelings about the old piece of shit. It’s not like we’re a bunch of immortals mourning the passing of a frail human. Every one of us is going to die, too. What’s the fucking big deal about something that happens to everyone sooner or later?
George Bernard Shaw covered this a long time ago, when he has a ghost in one of his plays admonish a newly-arrived ghost for getting all blubbery on hearing that a loved one was dead. “What is more absurd than one ghost mourning another?”
Consider how short human life is, I think the reasoning can be extended to the living, too. Thurmond was a scumbag in life, he’s a scumbag in death, I got nothing for him but contempt. I’m glad he’s gone.
That’s your idea of the middle path between Christ and Strom?
Who do you think Strom was, Darth Vader (they did kindof look the same, you know at the end of Jedi when they take the mask off "Look Ma, it’s Strom Thrumond?)
Just a suggestion. Can you maybe please move the middle path just a tad more in the Christ direction for me?
It looks a little crooked up on the mantle like that.
Sure, just as long as you put the nails and lumber down.
My point is, we all strive, but we’re also all human, and so very very precious few of us are as noble as these people I mentioned. I am flawed. I am angry. I hated this man. I didn’t say it was right. I didn’t even say I was happy about it. But the honest to goodness truth is, I’m glad he’s dead. YMMV.
And I don’t believe anyone here wised the same on Thurmond. Do I wish some kind of cosmic justice were meted out to him for the bigotry and discrimination he’s caused others? Yes. But I don’t wish him in eternal torment - all I really ever wanted him to do was understand what harm his actions were causing, but he obviously never got a clue in this life, so I can only hope he finds one in the next (whatever it may be). And torture? Please.
A lot of people who he harmed (directly or indirectly) are glad he’s finally died. That’s about it.
When he gave none? You’re going to have a hard time finding any sympathy for him around these parts.
Esprix
Esprix:
That’s a fair point. I don’t think anyone is evil for celebrating Thurmond’s death. I think we should strive not to do such things, but we are human after all.
In the same way, should we perhaps consider that Thurmond himself is human as well, and his formative years were spent almost a hundred years ago in a place where his hate was taught to him as the right thing? Maybe. I think it is possible to hate everything the man did, and still understand that. And it is possible to hate everything he did and not celebrate his death.
I don’t disagree with this. I too hope that he gets a clue in the next life, if there happens to be one. But some people in this thread did wish that he would go to hell, and wishing that kind of thing on people is sort of a hot button topic for me which is why I responded. I didn’t think you had wished that on him.
By basic human respect I only mean things like not celebrating his death, and not hoping that he goes to hell or anything like that, and recognizing that he is human, just a very flawed human.
Do I have sympathy for him? Yes. I wish that he did not grow up in a place where he would be taught to hate, and I am glad that I didn’t grow up where he did. I hope that even if I had I would not have ended up like him. That doesn’t mean I am mourning his death or anything. It just means I recognize that he is a human, and I would afford him basic human respect while not respecting his views at all.
Well, my riposte to that would be an exchange from All About Eve (how’s that for a gay response, quoting a Bette Davis movie?)
Fuck you, I’m building a deck.
Actuallyy I wish we could just totally can the histrionics. I read what you said in the other thread about my lack of empathy for the plight of gay people.
I read what you said about how if certain people try really hard to study gay issues they might deserve a “hearing” to see if they’ve achieved “empathy.”
Now I know you’re neither pompous, nor a judgemental prick.
But between you and me, nobody else listening, Do you have any idea how much that makes you *sound[i/] like a pompous judgemental prick?
Can you empathize with that outsider viewpoint?
I know you’re going to have to attack me back for saying that. I understand.
That is the funniest line I have heard in days.
Bravo!
applause
So far, I haven’t attacked you in this thread. I’ve been confrontational, but I haven’t called you any names or been exceptionally rude.
I give a hearing to informed opinions, and I pretty much ignore uninformed ones. Thus far, you haven’t seemed to know your subject. You don’t know anything about the legal struggles gay people have had to face and Strom Thurmond’s role in fomenting hostility to gays and blacks during his career. You act shocked that I and others have expressed levity and relief at Strom’s death, yet you have persistently ignored the reasons why we feel as we do. In the other thread, you refer to Strom Thurmond as an “elder statesman”
The man made a career out of race-baiting and was hostile to the interests of racial and societal equality for gays and blacks. He was one of many politicians who made political hay out of demonizing me and mine. If that is your idea of an elder statesman, we have very little to discuss.
I’m mostly on gobear’s side here, but if a ninety-nine year old Senator isn’t an Elder Statesman, I don’t know what eld means.
gobear:
No, but you went after me in the other thread, so here we are.
How would you know? I haven’t said anything about Strom. I’ve made no judgements, rendered no opinion, nor contradicted anything factual you’ve said.
I’m not arguing Strom. I’m arguing inecxusable tactless grave dancing.
I haven’t said anything about that. I’m not discussing that. I haven’t even opened my yap about that. You don’t fucking know what I know, don’t know, or beleive. You don’t even know what my fucking personal opinion is about the guy. I haven’t told you. It’s not what I’m discussing.
Stop telling me what I know or don’t know, am worthy of or am not. You’re dodging the issue.
[quote]
You act shocked that I and others have expressed levity and relief at Strom’s death, yet you have persistently ignored the reasons why we feel as we do.
[quote]
I’m not shocked. Just disapointed. I thought you were smarter. I understand, it just doesn’e excuse it.
Yes I do. Active in National politics for 60 years, and retiring at 100 makes him an elder statesman. What of it? Do you dispute the fact that he’s been around for a while?
No. My idea of an elder statesman is a dude that’s been around for a while.
Gobear:
You know what? About 80% of the time, I like your posts, and I think you’re a great guy.
THis is out of proportion to our disagreement, so I’m gonna cut and run.
I understand where you’re coming from, I just think your wrong.
Strom did some bad shit, and he gets no apologies or excuses from me. I haven’t defended him because I don’t want to. There’s nothing there I want to defend.
But I’m telling you sincerely and without rancor that not everybody feels the same way. And despicable or not, it comes off as tacky to attack the guy before he’s even buried. It alienates people that would otherwise be sympathetic.
I know for a fact that thee’s a lot of people out there who would be more actively sympathetic to gay issues except that their afraid. Grave dancing is hate rhetoric and it feeds that fear. It doesn’t help you.
It’s that fear that lets the haters get things like DOMA pushed through.
People like Strom get elected by being three different people. The bigots like him because they figure he ahtes black and gays just like they do. Then there’s the people who vote for him because he’s a personable old school politician, and they identify with other aspects of the man that they like, and the bigotry just isn’t an issue for them. Then there’s the people that are afraid out of their own ignorance. They like things the way they are and they don’t want them to change because their afraid they won’t like what happens.
I know you think you’re attacking just the one thing, but you’re really attacking the other two groups when you do this as well.
You give them reason.
You don’t want to do that.
Understanding doesn’t excuse. He had 100 years to learn, grow, and change. He spent almost 50 years in public service, actively promoting his own hurtful, hateful agenda. There are limits to my tolerance, and he passed it quite some time ago.
Esprix
Oh hey gang, get this?
Strom Thurmond had a black daughter.
Figures, doesn’t it?
Well, Guin, it seems everyone thinks that she’s his daughter, except her.
Of course, I don’t blame her for denying that Strom’s her father, but just because everyone thinks she is, doesn’t mean she is.
Heh. Had to link to this editorial cartoon (if it doesn’t come up, click on the one dated 6/28/03).
Poor Strom.
Esprix
I love it.
Link don’t work no more. Sadness.