Solution to Suicide Bombings

[Finagle]

*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies *
**

So perhaps Israel should stop it’s iron fist approach too, as in periods where there are no suicid bombings the Israelis tend to escalate their operations in the occupied territories.

source: http://www.btselem.org/ **

I dunno, MC. According to the statistics page on that site, based on Palestinian casualities, the late 1990’s were relatively calm. It was only after the start of the “al-Aqsa Intifada” that the death rate soared.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_start.php

Don’t know what bias, if any, is presented by the above page, but it presents the intifada as a deliberately provoked act of violence on the part of the Palestinians. In which case they really should be asking themselves some searching questions about whether they’re better off now than they were then.

[Guinastasia]

*Originally posted by Kalt *
**You have to earn human rights. **

:eek:
That is one of the most morally reprehensible statements I’ve ever read.

You do not “earn” human rights. That’s why they are CALLED “human rights.” You have a RIGHT to them simply because you are HUMAN.

Good god, please tell me you’re kidding!

[Jojo]

Although, hypothetically, kalt’s solution doesn’t go far enough when you consider what we could do if we really wanted to.

We could have a World Alliance against islam.

Stage 1 - India takes down Pakistan. It would go nuclear, it would be nasty but India would win.

Stage 2 - Silmultaneous invasion of islamic countires by the rest of the world. Russia and China deal with Asia. The US, Europe and Israel deal with the middle east and north Africa aided by the other African countries.

Stage 3 - Forcibly convert the people to another religion. It may take a generation or two but it’s worked in the past. Islam has done it, Christianity has done it.

Objections:

• we don’t have the moral right to change people’s religion

Who says? We can do whatever we think’s best. If God doesn’t like it then He can always intervene to stop it.

• there would be suicide bombings by the thousand

True, it would be a grim business. A lot of people (muslim and non-muslim) would die but at the end of it there would be no more islamic terrorists.

• what religion would we change them to?

Maybe whatever they were before they became islamic - Hindu, Christian, whatever

Note, I’m not saying we should do this, just hypothesising as to whether we could do it. Although it’s hard to escape the thought that if the whole islamic world became taliban-like like Osama wants then we might end up going to war with them anyway, simply because that brand of islam is so aggressive.

Even if we didn’t go to war with them, they’d go to war with us since that’s what the extremists believe - that islam should be spread by jihad.

Maybe it’d be better to get the war out of the way now, before they get nuclear weapons, rather than later. Although we should probably wait awhile to see how this current internal conflict within islam pans out.

If the good guys win, we leave them alone. If the bad guys win, we give them the war they seem to so-badly want. But the bad guys need to understand that, if we win, then they lose their whole religion from the planet. After all, if they won, they wouldn’t have any qualms about imposing their religion on the world. So why should we?

What goes around, comes around.

[emacknight]

Wait, for the most part our current situation really isn’t the fault of Islam (the peaceful religion).

If we went threw Jojo and Kalt’s plans there’d be another group of nuts taking up a cause. Extermination of a group really isn’t going to solve the problem.

[Blalron]

Withdrawl to the '67 borders is not the issue. If Israel moved back to the '67 borders tomorrow, there would still be bombings from some of the more radical groups out there that don’t want Israel to exist at all,

Surely you would agree that it might reduce bombings though?

I think the main advantage would be that the radical groups could no longer use the '67 borders issue to hide behind their true motivations.

[Kalt]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
**:eek:
That is one of the most morally reprehensible statements I’ve ever read.

You do not “earn” human rights. That’s why they are CALLED “human rights.” You have a RIGHT to them simply because you are HUMAN.**

Yeah I used to think that, too.

But after watching muslims slaughter not only non-muslims, but each other as well (sunni vs. shi’ite)… watching them strap bombs onto their children… watching them crash airplanes into buildings… watching them flog themselves in the streets, screaming and shouting and throwing rocks like animals… then I changed my opinion. These people do not deserve human rights until they change their ways and show that they can “play nice” with the rest of the species.

And as long as that koran says “kill all the non-muslims” they’re not going to.

Jojo I think I like your idea better than mine, it would just be a bit harder to do. But yeah, getting rid of Islam is the solution … No no no… not killing muslims b/c they’re muslims…i’m not talking hitler stuff… i’m just talking about getting rid of the religion. Prevent any new converts, prevent any children from being indoctrinated. Prevent it from being practiced. NO mosques anywhere. Anyone caught practicing goes to jail (where it can’t be spread past the prison fence). After a few generations allah will go the way of zeus. And then the suicide bombings will stop.

It’s quite a horrible shame that it has to come down to that, but there’s no other solution. Move israel to Canada and make 10 palentinian states… they’ll still be suicide-bombing non-muslim countries (and the muslim countries who are friendly to them) simply because they’re infidels.

The bottom line is there is not enough room on this planet for both Islam and peace. I say islam gets the toss.

[Magiver]

You are talking about terrorists as if they are a single entity. They are not.

The PLO wants a Palestinian homeland. Hamas wants Israel gone. Al Qada wants to rule the world as an Islamic state. (yes, I know that is a simplistic statement, don’t pick it apart).

You have to look at the religion of Islam to understand why they breed terrorists. And breeding terrorists is not an expression, that is exactly what is happening.

-It is a fundamentalist religion. Challenging any aspect of the religion is a death sentence.
-Its dogma is reinforced by prayer, which is repeated 5 times a day, 365 days a year.
-There are no specific requirements to become a religious leader.
-Once you are accepted as a leader, any challenge to your authority is considered blasphemous and subject to a death penalty.
-If you renounce Islam it is a death sentence.
-Anyone not of the religion is considered an infidel, and are not given the same consideration of basic rights. The exception are the “people of the Book” (Christians, Jews)

With these characteristics you have the ability to control people without question. Add to that the Islamic requirement to give to the poor and you now have a financial source to fund the Taliband (religious schools) where you can train people to do your bidding.

It is not the teaching of Islam that is bad. It is the ability to use the religion as a tool to gain power. That is what makes it dangerous. I would compare the terrorist organizations to the KKK. You have the same application of religion (God is on our side) with a zealous psychotic hatred of anyone that doesn’t fit their mold. Substitute the word “Jew” in place of “Nigger” and you would be hard pressed to tell which group was speaking.

You have to address the religion before any other solution can be applied. IMO, you have to find an Islamic sect that is peaceful in nature and then cultivate it using the same techniques listed above.

I would also add that poverty and despair are accelerators of the terrorist disease. It is much more difficult to brainwash a happy person into “blowing themselves up for God”. It is not a rational act.

If I were to make a serious attempt at creating a Palestinian state, I would fix their infrastructure (fresh water, electricity etc…) and create an environment for employment (free trade zone, low interest business loans, etc…)

[Kalt]

Unless the koran is re-written to make it clear that current islamic practices are “against allah” it’s just not going to work. It’s a flawed book. It has to go. The bible isn’t great either… in fact it’s quite rancid in parts… but it has minimal checks and balances.

If you made a Palestinian state and fixed the infrastructure and created an environment for employment, they’d blow it all up, smash it down, dance on the rubble (“lalalalalalalalala” waving guns in the air) and begin plotting the next attack against the zionist pigs and democratic infidels. Sorry, it’s un-fixable.

[Guinastasia]

Kalt, do you have a (non-biased) cite for your claims about the Qu’ran? Perhaps some direct quotes from the book itself?

Good GOD, what about Christians who bomb abortion clinics?

The VAST MAJORITY of Muslims aren’t terrorists!
:mad:

[Guinastasia]

Oh, and Kalt?

Come here.

[Tee]

Rather than blaming the religion, blame the fundamentalists within. I don’t know how many times here I’ve made arguments and others have made arguments that Christian fundamentalists do not speak for all Christians - they represent themselves. We’ve also noted in the past (re: homosexuality arguments) that these same people will pick and choose which Biblical directives are followed, and which are ignored, to suit what becomes more and more a political agenda than a religion. Islam appears to be no different. So, no, the answer is not to rid ourselves of Islam any more than promoting gay rights necessitates ridding ourselves of Christianity, imo.

The struggle is against those who wield religion as their weapon.

[Kalt]

if i go and get you cites for where the koran says kill the infidels, you’ll just give me the “oh it doesn’t really mean that, it was just mistranslated” crap. I’ve said it before; it doesn’t matter what it means. It matters what they all think it means. But all you need to do is run a google search for “koran quotes” to get all the nice, pretty ones.

The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of muslims support the same causes that the terrorists do. Thus they are sympathetic to them. The vast majority of muslims do NOT like israel. The vast majority of the world’s muslims do NOT like western culture and values. I saw quite a vast majority of middle-east muslims dancing in the streets on sept. 11th. It wasn’t just a small group of a dozen or so with the “vast majority” of muslims standing around booing them for being so tasteless. Political correctness only goes so far. Sorry.

Yes, 99.999% of muslims will say “oh those terrorists are bad, we do not condone that,” but if that’s so, then it’s their duty to stop those terrorists from destroying the reputation of their religion. They never do. Lip service is easy, but inadequate. Sure, the vast majority of Muslims aren’t willing to go that extra mile and strap dynamite to their chests, but it’s not because they don’t want those infidels (read: us) blown up.

If you could let all muslims in the world vote whether or not america and israel should just vanish into thin air or stay just the way they are, what do you think the “VAST majority” would have to say?

Yes, christians can do bad things too, but very rarely do they terrorize through indiscriminate violence… and as long as you stay away from abortion clinics and gay funerals you have absolutely nothing to worry about vis a vis christianity and violence. Hopefully those two exceptions will go away sometime in the near future.

[Ben_Hicks]

Kalt

I saw quite a vast majority of middle-east muslims dancing in the streets on sept. 11th.

I’m sorry Kalt, but assuming you are not a resident of a muslim country and saw only what the rest of us did then you most certainly didn’t see a “vast majority” of muslims celebrating 9/11. What you saw were a few dozen zealots handpicked by the TV companies for maximum impact.

[capacitor]

*Originally posted by Kalt *
**The US has to explicitly state its policy rather than having the policy and lying about it:

"Control your fanatics or we’ll control your country."

**

Kalt, how come we didn’t invade Saudi Arabia and Egypt yet with this logic?

[tomndebb]

Kalt, do you have a (non-biased) cite for your claims about the Qu’ran? Perhaps some direct quotes from the book itself?

Nah. Kalt has posted the same drivel on several other threads. When it is pointed out that he is deliberately misreading the Qur’an, he simply goes back to playing “no true Scotsman” games and insisting that his out-of-context, badly translated snippets are the “real” Islam and repeating his falsehoods.

I have not figured out if he actually believes the errors in his posts, but he holds to them pretty rigorously. There is no point in attempting debate, because he will only keep circling back to a restatement of his false premises.

(To be fair, he takes the same approach to any other belief system, religious or secular. He is not so much anti-Muslim as anti-human-activity.)

[Magiver]

From what I’ve read, and the Muslims I’ve talked to agree, the Quran IS against the current bombings. It is not the religion that is at fault. It is the people who have dubbed themselves clerics that are the cause of the problem. There isn’t a unified structure in place to rule on the actions of those responsible.

When you have someone who has declared himself an imam and repeatedly says the United States is the great Satan, there is nothing you can do to challenge that person. You would be condemned as a heretic. Look at what happened when Pat Robertson said the religion was violent. Iranian cleric Ayatollah Mohsen Mujtahed Shabestari called for his death. (Yah, we’ll show HIM we’re not a bunch of murderers). It also set off riots in India that killed 5 people. All from the mere criticism of the religion.

[emacknight]

Oh, and what was that situation in Nigeria with the Ms World Pagent?

“Mohamed would have chosen one of these women”?

The death toll in the town of Kaduna was an estimated 105 with a further 521 injured taken to hospital, aid workers said Friday.

[Magiver]

Guns don’t kill people, Mullah’s with bullhorns kill people.

[buttonjockey308]

The boat has indeed been missed. Islam, like most of the other worlds major and minor religions are (at least in their current, homogenized forms) against harming others in the name of that religion. Christians kill in the name of God, they have done so for as long as there have been Christians, Muslims kill in the name of Allah, likewise. So what’s the solution? I think we’re on our way to it.

The way that will ruffle the fewest feathers is the way we’re doing it now. We’re sending people in on the street in places that harbor terrorists, and rooting them out, and if necessary, killing them. Life’s a bitch in 2003 if you’re a terrorist, you just don’t know who’s going to rat you out for a fist full of American dollars.

Kalt, extremism is seldom the answer, although I do not completely disagree with you. Still, I think that what you suggest borders on a kind of existential genocide. The 'just round ‘em up’ theory has worked, but it has cost signifigantly more in all respects, just ask the WWII Japanese.

All of that having been said, I think that we need to keep a watch on those folks who are muslim, and those who are expat Iraqis, Iranians, Saudis etc. and the sympathizers thereof. After all, these weren’t Minnesota Lutherans who demolished the WTC or send their children into Israeli malls strapped with explosives. They were muslims, extremist ones, yes, but muslims just the same. I certianly do not believe, in fact I reject completely the idea of wiping out a religion, yet the need for control within that religion is so badly needed, that it would be impossible, even foolish, to argue otherwise. The issue remains, from where does that control originate? The answer? In the future generations of muslims, that are ‘assisted’ by US PsyOps in reprogramming the youth of muslim countries away from the insanity that their predecessors chose, and into a more moderate form if Islam.

All the fixing of this problem will be done on the sneak, and despite our best efforts, we will not stop them all. That is the unfortunate reality.

-What Would Scooby Doo?

[Duckster]

It is interesting to observe the bulk of the posts are centering on the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the associated suicide bombings, along with a smattering of other Eastern Hemisphere suicide bombings.

I wonder what direction this thread would take if suicide bombings took on a dramatic increase in Western Europe and North America? Say, two or three bombings a month (a week) in Western European capitals, or weekly bombings in cities across America?

(I would hope there would be no counter-comment to this saying it cannot happen in America because of our regulations of explosives and hazardous materials, it’s too difficult here, etc., etc. Don’t forget two individuals with high-powered rifles literally paralyzed tens of millions last October for a few weeks in Maryland, DC and Virginia. I can think of half a dozen scenarios using McGyver-type thinking right now using common and freely available components to make/denonate bombs all across America long before our police forces and the citizenry get close to a handle on this.)